Micah J. Murray
How Feminism Hurts Men

How Feminism Hurts Men

November 12, 2013 1,606 Comments

Yesterday somebody on Facebook told me that feminism elevates women at the expense of men, that its agenda to validate women emasculates us guys.

He was right.

For men, the rise of feminism has relegated us to second-class status. Inequality and discrimination have become part of our everyday lives.

Because of feminism, men can no longer walk down the street without fear of being catcalled, harassed, or even sexually assaulted by women. When he is  assaulted, the man is blamed – the way he dressed he was “asking for it”.

Because of feminism, there are no major Christian conferences about how to act like men,  where thousands of men can celebrate their manliness and Jesus (and perhaps poke fun at female stereotypes).

Because of feminism, church stages and spotlights are often dominated by women. Men are encouraged to just serve in the nursery or kitchen. Sometimes men are even told to stay silent in church.

Because of feminism, women make more money than man in the same jobs.

Because of feminism, it’s hard to find a movie with a heroic male lead anymore. Most blockbusters feature a brave woman who saves the world and gets a token man as a trophy for her accomplishments.

Because of feminism, women’s professional sports are a massively profitable enterprise where women are globally idolized. Men only appear briefly, before commercial breaks, when they’re objectified for their bodies.

Because of feminism, all birth control is covered for women without question or debate, while men have to fight to get insurance companies to pay for their Viagra prescriptions. When men do speak up about this, leaders of the “family friendly” right wing labels them “sluts” and “whores”.

Because of feminism, the male body is constantly under public scrutiny. If a man appears topless on TV, it’s a national scandal resulting in huge fines and boycotts. Bloggers regularly write about how we need to be more mindful of the ways our clothing choices tempt women to sin. Satirists insist that shorts “aren’t really pants” and then men should cover up because “nobody wants to see that”.

Because of feminism, men are not represented in the White House, and women hold over 80% of the seats in Congress. When a man runs for office, his physical appearance and clothing choices are discussed almost as much as his policies and ideas.

Because of feminism, men must fight for a voice in the public sphere. In issues of theology, politics, science, and philosophy, the female perspective is often considered default, normal, and unbiased. Male perspectives are dismissed for being too subjective or too emotional. When we speak up, we are often dismissed as angry, rebellious, subversive, or dangerous.

But stay strong, bros.

One day we’ll all be equal.

Whatever you do, don’t read Jesus Feminist. It’s full of ideas that will continue to oppress and harm men — ideas such as “women are people too” and “the dignity of and rights of women are as important as those of men”.

[Note: I’ve written a follow-up with a bit of backstory: “How I Became a Jesus Feminist”]

[ image: zubrow ]
  • EthanRogati

    Sarcasm and being dismissive of someone else’s viewpoint is uncharacteristic.

    That said, if you’re not aware of how feminism has thrown things off balance in the opposite direction to where they used to be, there’s nothing I will be able to do to convince you. Correcting an imbalance by creating another is still imbalance.

    In a society where the drum of equality is constantly being sounded, to deride the idea that inequality is being championed instead, just in a different way than it used to be, is frankly misguided and blind to some of the very real inequalities being championed by feminism and other movements.

    Yes, men have held sway for very long and in ways that have been oppressive to women. Going to the opposite extreme of the pendulum, instead of true equality, is just as much of a societal failure as where things have been before.

    I am aware that what I’m saying will not likely be popular here. Not everything is about popularity. Some things are about speaking out, even in the face of purported champions of equality.

    • EthanRogati

      I apologize for the tone of the above. I understood Micah’s point, but disagreed with the delivery.

    • “…of how feminism has thrown things off balance in the opposite direction to where they used to be…”

      You say that as if it’s a bad thing. I would think that moving in the opposite direction from oppression would be a good thing.

      “inequalities being championed by feminism and other movements.”

      Could you give us an example of one of these inequalities?

      “Going to the opposite extreme of the pendulum, instead of true equality, is just as much of a societal failure as where things have been before.”
      No one is suggesting we “go to the opposite extreme.” If you’re implying that embracing feminist and womanist critiques of social structures is synonymous with “going to the opposite extreme,” then you’ll need to substantiate that assertion with some actual data.

      • EthanRogati

        I’m saying is that oppression by one gender of another is continuing, just that it’s heading in the direction of swapping which gender is oppression the other. It’s not there yet, but to me, that’s where it appears to be headed.

        The only data points I have at this point are the numerical imbalance of women to men in the college population and in human services, two areas in which I have direct experience. Having college educated women is not a bad thing, but the rate at which men are dropping out of even going to college is. Having caretakers for the ill being women is not a bad thing, but if the population being cared for consists of both women and men, then so should the caretaker population.

        If you’re asserting that no one, not in this discussion, but in the dialogue on these issues in wider society, is advocating for the overthrow of the patriarchy (which does exist) and pushing for a matriarchy instead, then you haven’t been paying attention.

        • It’s an awfully long way from:

          “The only data points I have at this point are the numerical imbalance of women to men in the college population and in human services…”


          “oppression by one gender of another is continuing, just that it’s heading in the direction of swapping which gender is oppression the other. It’s not there yet, but to me, that’s where it appears to be headed.”

          “Having college educated women is not a bad thing, but the rate at which men are dropping out of even going to college is.”

          Is this meant to imply that feminism is somehow to blame for men not going to college?

          “If you’re asserting that no one, not in this discussion, but in the dialogue on these issues in wider society, is advocating for the overthrow of the patriarchy (which does exist) and pushing for a matriarchy instead, then you haven’t been paying attention.”
          I assure you, I am paying attention, and I’ve yet to meet these bogey(wo)men. Could you provide some examples?

        • Anne_Hedonia

          Ethan, I have been a feminist since I was a little girl. Because I believe in equal rights for women, my friends tend to be feminists too. I also go to feminist conferences and retreats, and have volunteered for many feminist causes.

          Of the thousands of feminists I have met and talked to, and of the tens of thousands of articles and essays and studies about feminism I have read, I can remember exactly two women who sincerely thought that it was “women’s turn to be the oppressor”, or that women were somehow “better” than men.

          Two. Out of a vast number. And nobody liked them, and the rest of us women passionately tried to show them how wrongheaded their ideas were. You can always find a couple angry or crazy or wrongheaded people in every crowd.

          The overwhelming majority of feminists want equality. That’s it. Not to make women and men the SAME; but for women to have the same opportunities and advantages as men. Don’t you think that’s a good idea?

          If you DON’T think equal opportunity and privilege under the law for women is a good idea – EQUAL, not BETTER – why not?

          • EthanRogati

            I agree with you that equality is a good thing. Equal, not better. I’ve run into more than two. I guess it depends on circumstances and environment.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            That’s so great to hear. Thank you. And it’s true, it really does depend on circumstance and environment.

            The soul-crushing thing for me, is how man men (and some women, sadly) still firmly believe that women are not smart or capable enough to do certain jobs, or hold public office. That women are cute and silly, and stupid. You have probably seen a lot of comments, articles, political speeches, etc. – like I have – that talk about the inferiority of women, either outright or implicitly (Rush Limbaugh’s tirade about how any woman who wants birth control is a slut, for one horrific example).

            I LOVE men. My best friend is a man; I’m married to a man who is the toughest, most capable guy you’d ever want to meet. What I love about these guys is that it never even crosses their mind that I can’t do something, or shouldn’t, simply because I’m female. I grew up in the country, and had to learn how to do things like use a chainsaw, drive cattle, shoe horses, sew up wounds, drive huge tractors, etc. It turns out, I was really good at those things, and enjoyed them. Imagine my shock when I moved to a city as a teenager to go to school, and was bombarded with messages telling me I was weak, inferior, and needed protection. That I was too stupid to hold a job that paid well.

            That kind of constant BS is extremely hurtful. Being laughed at and mocked when I say something in front of certain men in certain environments, or just seeing how women are belittled every day in the media and on the streets – it is very, very painful. Can you try to imagine what it must be like? It really sucks, to put it bluntly.

            I do not want women to hold MORE political offices than men. I don’t want MORE women graduating college or more women in CEO positions. But we still have a very long ways to go before we’re even equal – much less in the equally untenable position of the pendulum swinging all the way in the other direction.

            Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful and respectful response – it makes a really nice change from the rancid attacks I’m used to getting, more often than not. Nice not to be called a Feminazi or told to make a sammich or some exhausted, ridiculous joke like that. Have a great day.

          • EthanRogati

            I wish you the same as well.

            I admittedly do not know what it’s like to be dismissed and belittled due to gender.

            I do, however, know what it’s like to be dismissed and belittled due to a disability and all of the other stuff that has come with it, such as side effects of medication and impacts on income and sources of income due to that disability.

            It’s not the same and I know it. I cannot do anything about my disability, just as neither of us can change our gender. At the same time, I know that because of my race and gender, I have received some distinct advantages or have not experienced dramatic disadvantages.

            As for the present, I live in a home where, due to my disability and that of another family member, I am at home with three children while my spouse has a full time job. I am homeschooling an adolescent and raising a preschooler and a toddler. I am in the stereotypical role of the stay at home mom, but of the opposite gender. There’s a lot that I miss out on and am not able to do because of that position. Again, I’m not saying it’s the same, but I understand a small bit of what has gone on historically. A very small bit.

            The point of all of my posts was not to lament that I’m losing the advantages of being a man in American society. I’m lamenting that, while we’re not even at the point of gender equality, momentum seems to be shifting in a way that will take us right past the midpoint and to the other side. Thank you for acknowledging that, if that indeed happens, it would be no better than what we have now.

            Thank you for taking the time to read the short bit I had to say.

            P.S. As to the “circumstances and environment” phrase, my negative experience with what I’ve called the other side of the pendulum was in the early 1990s at a state university campus in upstate New York. Things have hopefully changed there and elsewhere since. I admit that it’s old experience and personal experience, but that’s where and when it came from.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            Wow. I can only imagine what it’s like to be in the situation you are currently in. I don’t have kids, because long ago I realized that I, personally, am not brave enough, strong enough, or honestly, mentally equipped to be a parent. Much less of THREE children! And much less, coping with a disability at the same time. My hat is permanently tipped to you; it sounds to me like you are doing an enormously courageous thing, to the absolute best of your abilities, under a set of very difficult circumstances.

            I want to make it clear, if it’s not already, that I completely understand and agree, that just because you happen to be male and (I’m guessing?) white, does NOT mean your life is a cake-walk. Having a disability is an enormous hurdle. I have severe clinical depression and a really nasty panic disorder that limits my life, so I might know a small bit of what that’s like, while not knowing what you are personally coping with. It is astonishingly difficult, esp. in a society that does not fully understand these issues, and when getting treatment is so expensive and difficult.

            You being male and white does NOT automatically make life easy. And having a disability – plus THREE children to care for, full-time – is a layer of difficulty that would be impossible for a lot of people. It must be kind of odd, to be in the role that women have traditionally performed, but I must say, your kids are lucky to have you.

            One thing that I really hope feminism can help bring about is the acceptance of the vital importance of fathers in child-raising. The patriarchy, I believe, is mostly responsible for the ridiculous notion that somehow mothers are “more important” – that men can not be nurturing, or don’t feel just as much love for their children. That BS has led to horrific situations in which men have their kids taken away in divorce, with courts being greatly biased, historically, in women’s favor. It is heartbreaking for men – my own husband has a son he has not been allowed to see since he was a baby, when his wife left him and got full custody. I KNOW how much it hurt him and still does.

            For that, and many other reasons, I believe that “feminism” (a terrible word, I really prefer “humanism” or “equality” though those don’t quite work either) will have HUGE benefits for men, just as much as for women. As long as we are vigilant against the pendulum swinging to the opposite extreme – a situation which would be just as awful and unfair as the one we have now.

            Best regards and wishes, to you and your family.

          • EthanRogati

            There’s so much here that I could respond to, but I will just say “Thank you”

          • Carlos Alden

            Ethan- I took a break from my career and functioned as the stay-home parent in my family for 15 years. This is not an easy job. To me it sounds like you still think it is a gender-role reversal and you are uncomfortable with it for yourself. I suggest you stop blaming feminism and go hang out with other Stay-Home-Dads and find out how masculine it can be: http://athomedad.org/

          • EthanRogati

            I’m not blaming feminism. My upbringing was pretty pigeonholing as far as which genders did what. It’s definitely not an easy job and one that I don’t feel qualified for, regardless of my gender. My mental health has created a situation where I cannot work full time and so, it’s gone to me to raise the kids.

            My concerns about gender imbalance have long predated becoming symptomatic. Women and men deserve equal opportunity for equal effort and qualification, as well as equal pay for the same. My only concern about correcting the current imbalance is that it will become just another imbalance, but to the opposite extreme. I think it needs to be corrected and that such a correction should be taken on, even with my above concern. I’m just wary of it going too far. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try.

            Back to staying at home with my kids. I love them and want to do my best. My wife has a master’s degree, many years of experience and is highly qualified to do her job. Even if I were back in my pre-illness career, it would still make more sense for her to be the one working, primarily from an income level standpoint.

            It’s hard to be a stay-at-home dad coming from a family where men were expected to do the work and come home to their wife and kids. I resent my upbringing more than my current condition, because it didn’t prepare me for the eventuality that I face now.

            I’m not intending to be anti-woman or anti-feminist or deride those fathers who willingly and gladly take on the challenge of staying at home. I just don’t feel qualified or very good at it.

          • Carlos Alden

            Yes, it’s hard to be a stay-home dad in this culture. So quit resenting your upbringing and go join other guys who have figured out how to navigate this rocky road. Ask them how they have dealt with it and how to successfully challenge these gender roles. You don’t have to be locked in them.

          • EthanRogati

            Carlos, I know you’re trying to be encouraging here. I’m not upset with you for trying. I will look at the link.

            It’s not all locked up in gender issues. A lot of it has more to do with my mental health and as challenging as gender issues are, mental health is even more so, at least for me. Self-perception is a major problem, not because I resent being a man taking care of my kids instead of working, but because I don’t feel that great about myself, period. If I don’t value myself, I don’t value the worth of what I do, regardless of what it is.

            That’s an issue for another blog, forum, support group, whatever. I’m just trying to clarify that, while a good bit of my challenge is de-programming myself from the gender stereotypes I was raised with, it’s the lesser of the issues.

          • Carlos Alden

            Ethan: I hear ya. That is not an issue for another forum, though I offer you this thought: Some of what your low self-esteem is about comes from all of us growing up in this shit patriarchal society that has said we are not real men unless we fit neatly into predetermined roles. Guess what – feminism is as much about destroying that notion for men as it is for women. Go to that forum and start contributing and getting to know guys. Your self-esteem will go up and you will value yourself as a fully masculine stay home dad, despite your other issues. You will change your self-perception. Been there, buddy. It’s not separated from the bullshit that culture has laid on us.

          • kendra folsom

            Momentum is not shifting toward the “other side,” which I assume you mean oppression of men. If men are oppressed in some way, it is due to the PATRIarchy. Men can’t cry? It’s the patriarchy that says that. I can go on. Do you know what rape culture is? Do some research on that and very quickly you will realize that society is not moving to oppress men. Being a stay at home dad and having faced adversity due to disability does not in any way mean that women are oppressing men, nor does your one lifetime of taking care of kids and being considered second-class by some (not me) due to your disability make up for the generations that have oppressed women in every way possible, thus ingraining into people’s consciousness a hatred for women. Just because in some countries women can vote and hold positions of authority, it does not mean that thousands of women are afraid to walk to their car at night after work because patriarchy says it is okay to rape women who are out alone at night.

            I’m not belittling your existence or experience, but I just don’t think your reasoning to believe that women are trying to oppress men holds any weight at all.

          • EthanRogati

            I apologize, Anne. I had written a long response here, but it disappeared.

            Basically, I tried to say that, as I am a man, I haven’t experienced discrimination based on gender. I do have a disability, however, and have experienced discrimination based on that. It’s not the same in nature, but I do understand how much discrimination sucks.

            I’m sorry for how you’ve been treated.

          • EthanRogati

            Never mind. I see it below. Confusing sorting here.

          • kendra folsom

            The ones you’re talking about aren’t feminists. Stop associating them with feminism, because we don’t want them either. They might call themselves a feminist, but that’s because they’re using a made-up definition (which is, unfortunately, the only definition society wants to listen to.)

        • Betty Eyer

          Who is keeping men from being in care taker jobs? Who is making men drop out of college? Just because a phenomenon exists, does not mean it is the result of prejudice.

    • How is feminism the extreme opposite of male dominance? I’m sure someone can dig up some dicey stuff from a theorist or two (what perspective doesn’t have extremes and nuance?), but how is advocating equality shifting to an extreme? Can you give concrete examples and even link to anything that comes remotely close to substantiating your claims? Have men lost rights because women want equal pay, equal dignity, and equal rights? It’s not that what you’re saying isn’t popular. It’s that I honestly have no idea what you’re referring too unless you’re willing to give specific examples.

    • Feminism does not equal matriarchy. And the Facebook comment that inspired this post actually WAS about “Christian Feminism” (Jesus Feminist, to be exact).

    • Nicole Resweber

      Let’s say, using your historical pendulum, the status quo for all of history (men holding all social power) is left. In order to reach equality, that pendulum has to swing to the right. That doesn’t mean it’s going to wind up all the way right, with women holding all social power. That DOES mean men are going to lose some social power/dominance. That off-balance feeling? That’s you being unused to not sitting in a position of absolute privilige.

      • EthanRogati

        I will break my silence to respond to this.

        Oh yes, I’m absolutely priviledged.

        I have Bipolar Disorder. It makes me widely accepted in a society where a man needs to have a full time job and is rejected as useless if he does not.

        I am overweight due to messed up metabolism by medication that I have to take to moderate the Bipolar Disorder. I am cheered on and told to gain more weight because being obese is full of power.

        I am poor. I cannot earn money because I cannot work due to the Bipolar Disorder and how it messes up with my ability to think coherently in a predictable manner on someone else’s schedule. This is also great and grants me huge amounts of power and privilege.

        See? I can do sarcasm and call it “satire” too. Now give me my own blog and lots of props.

        • “in a society where a man needs to have a full time job and is rejected as useless if he does not.”

          The sort of gender essentialization is exactly the sort of thing feminism is pushing *against* in striving for equality.

          “I am cheered on and told to gain more weight because being obese is full of power.”

          Feminism also entails a powerful critique of the normative standards of beauty that create the sort of shaming mechanisms you’re alluding to here.

        • Nicole Resweber

          Privilege exists along many axes. Having it on one does not invalidate your oppression on another. It’s an intersectional system, not an absolute one.

        • Philip Brooks

          It sounds like you’re blaming feminism for issues that are still very much tied to patriarchy. And this is a point I wish more people would realize. Patriarchy and the sexist institutions it cultivates are not only oppressive to women. They’re oppressive to men too, because they force men to take on absolute roles and forms of identity, such as the provider or the strong-man. Men who failed to live up to the standards of dominance patriarchy demanded were looked down up and treated as sub-human. The very issues you bring up are exactly the sorts of things feminism is combating, body image, mental health taboos, and a system that values a person solely upon their job and income. Don’t lash out at the feminists when it is old systems of oppression that are responsible.

          • EthanRogati

            No, that’s not what I was doing. I was disagreeing that I somehow sit in a position of “absolute privilege” just because I am a man. I do not, for other reasons, but the person who said I had “absolute privilege” wouldn’t know that because she just looked at my gender.

            *sigh* I have no idea why I’m participating in this discussion. I originally posted because I disagreed and felt the need to clarify.

            I will say it one more time; I think equality for women is a GOOD thing. I think men HAVE oppressed. I think patriarchy DOES exist and needs to be done away with.

            And that’s where I’ll leave it.

            MIcah, please do whatever you need to do to block me or boot me or prevent me from posting. Thanks.

          • Nicole Resweber

            Ah. I owe you an apology. I was thinking in the male vs female frame of this post, and I should not have used the word absolute without specifying gender privilege. I am sorry for invisibling other axes along which you are not privileged.

          • Jeff Middel

            Even absolute gender privilege doesn’t exist because specific instances prohibit it. Female CEO’s have dominance in their own company and their male employees therefore do not have that absolute privilege. Case by case, this is provable.

            Some professions are dominated by women at every level. Men in those professions do not have privilege. These are two examples that demystify that “absolute privilege”. Absolute would be an every case scenario.

          • Nicole Resweber

            You’re so right. Thankyou for spending some of your valuable time and man-brain power to explain to me how a female CEO disproves male social privilege.

          • Jeff Middel

            Actually, I was demonstrating how even one exception to male privilege negates an absolute privilege. It’s the generalization of privilege that has hurt men and continues to do so.

            Your sarcasm is classy. (see what I did there?)

          • Pat

            “…the person who said I had ‘absolute privilege’ wouldn’t know that because she just looked at my gender.”
            Gosh, it’s almost like it’s the topic of discussion and she was referring to that specifically.

    • Jonathan Herring

      “if you’re not aware of how feminism has thrown things off balance in the opposite direction to where they used to be, there’s nothing I will be able to do to convince you.”

      I’m somewhat confused Ethan. What I am hearing is that you appreciate equality, but then you are criticizing all of the changes that have occurred.

      I don’t think it is necessarily good that women are overtaking men in college education, but lets be real, men make more money, hold far more high-power positions, and are treated with more awe/respect in our culture.

      Sure, matriarchy is a possibility and not something we want, but to say its a threat now, is somewhat akin to saying that the civil rights movement was leading to slavery of white people.

  • Renee

    This made my husband and I laugh. But it all comes down to Gen 3, doesn’t it? It’s a part of “the curse,” that men will dominate. Not that any believer should want to continue to live under that, when we’re freed from other consequences of our sin through salvation… (Not to mention allowing women to take pain meds for childbirth and trying to making farming easier and more productive.)
    Which is why I find it strange that Christianity isn’t the group leading women’s rights. #mytwocents

    • EthanRogati

      I don’t want anyone to dominate, even in a world where the Bible says we all live under “The Curse”.

      Men HAVE dominated for millennia. It’s not right and it’s not something that Christianity should endorse. Women SHOULD have equal rights.

      However, some of the patterns I’ve seen in society, such as the fact that the majority of college students are now women or the fact that the majority of those in human service jobs such as nursing and counseling are now women, while not signs of oppression or inequality on their own, are indicators that something is off balance. Men and women, or to keep it even, women and men, should be equal in pursuing higher education or taking care of the mentally ill, as well as other areas of society.

      Equality should be the pursuit, not switching to a matriarchy because we’ve had enough of patriarchy. Neither is right, when, to paraphrase poorly, “there is no male nor female, slave nor free, Jew nor Greek”.

      Treating each other with humanity should not be a zero sum game.

      • Sheep75

        Feminism does not equal matriarchy. Christian feminism is about equality, not about ‘now it’s our turn to be boss’.

        You are right, there are many things that are off balance. You are right, we should pursue equality. I think that that is actually Micah’s point.

        The man in the blog post is in reality a woman, feminism in the blog post is in reality the world view of too many people. Let’s change this situation by pursuing equality.

        • EthanRogati

          I’m glad that Christian feminism is about equality. However, we don’t live in a Christian society. I am not complaining about Christian feminism.

          I got Micah’s point. The stats and viewpoints he presented are the opposite of what he sarcastically put forth. I understand.

          Let’s indeed pursue equality. My point is that such a pursuit is not what I see going on. Things may still be inequal in the favor of men, but they’re rapidly shifting, not to equality, but to the opposite extreme.

          I wish it were not so, that we could somehow stop in the middle, that the pendulum would stop swinging. I will pray that such will happen and do what I can to pursue equality.

          I’m just cautioning that what I pray for and wish is not what appears to be happening, in society in general.

          • “Things may still be inequal in the favor of men, but they’re rapidly shifting, not to equality, but to the opposite extreme.”

            Simply stating that this is the case doesn’t make it true. In fact the data that Micah alludes to in his post indicate that the opposite is true, that we’re still a long way from the “oppposite extreme” you speak of.
            I’m curious though, what is this opposite extreme? Can you give some examples of what it looks like? What attitudes/actions/systems/structures do you imagine are instantiated there, and how do you think we’re moving toward them?

          • EthanRogati

            I’m rapidly monopolizing the comments on this article, so I won’t repeat myself. I’ve stated the data, which is verifiable, that lends to my conclusion.

            I’m not saying we’re there now. I’m saying that we’re headed in an opposite direction, not headed for equality.

          • Again, this:
            “The only data points I have at this point are the numerical imbalance of women to men in the college population and in human services.”

            in no way warrants the conclusion that we’re “switching to a matriarchy because we’ve had enough of patriarchy.”

          • Jeff Middel

            There are numerous articles about the dominance of women in universities, in both Canada and the UK (for instance). Some of those exact universities maintain an affirmative action position that continues to favour the admission of women. That is no longer a position of equality but over compensation.

            Here is one link but you could find many, including news articles that have published the same.


          • Hannah Decker

            Okay, so women might be getting a disproportionate percentage of college degrees awarded nowadays. So what? It’s not as if they’re paid more for these degrees than men are for theirs. Unfortunately I think this single piece of evidence suggesting that our society now privileges women may actually work against you: women must seek more and higher degrees to earn remotely the same amount of money as their male peers. No, the patriarchy is still alive and thrashing. http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2013/03/27/college-graduation-gender-salaries/

          • Jeff Middel

            So first people challenge the claim of a major inequality, then when it’s demonstrated, the question is “so what?”.

            When there’s affirmative action in a field favouring the people that already dominate, that is discrimination. I would say it’s discrimination either way, but considering they are already the dominating group?
            There are other reasons for wage disparity and there are numerous articles published on the issue.
            Buy germane to this subject (which you’ve conceded) the wage disparity issue is a distraction.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            A distraction?! Really. Huh.

            It has not felt like a ‘distraction’ to ME, but then, I’m just a girl, so what do I know. *facepalm*.

          • Jeff Middel

            It’s a distraction because the issue being addressed was addressed. And then when it’s demonstrated with evidence, people post, “so what?”… and give a distraction argument.

            Just remember, you wrote you’re “just a girl”, not me. I presented evidence for my claims which were summarily dismissed.

          • PublicNightmare

            Jeff~ As I understand it, men are taking themselves out of the game of University studies so they do not have to compete with women. This is THEIR choice. Women are not pushing them out or creating organizations that keep them out….they are not belittling men for attending college or demeaning them for not being men (as happened to women who wanted to attend college). They are choosing to make less money and not get an education. I don’t understand their logic, but if that is what they want to do, who can stop this irrational response to women showing they can do what the men can.

          • Jeff Middel

            I sincerely hope you don’t really believe that.

          • PublicNightmare

            Actually, I do think men are choosing not to go. Why else would they not go?

          • Jeff Middel

            There could be a lot of reasons. Universities market towards women. The public education system benefits women more than men? I’m actually not sure. But based on my own experience, the former seems to be a fact. Again, not sure if it is a factor.

          • PublicNightmare

            Actually, it has been proven over and over again that women are silenced in middle and high school. Men are routinely asked to answer questions ESPECIALLY in Science and Math. There are plenty of psychological studies regarding this…which I am sure you can easily find.

            Girls have the advantage in elementary school because boys brains don’t develop as early. They catch up by middle school, but the bias of the classroom takes over.

            So, if there is a bias in the male favor, the only explanation for boys not attending college lays with the choice of boys. Either by choosing not to study or choosing not to attend.

            BTW, the scholarships to college for sports are largely given to boys……

          • Jeff Middel

            I don’t necessarily agree with all of this commentator’s opinions, but she echos some of Christina Hoff Sommer’s ideas that may scratch the root of the problem:


          • edtastic

            “women must seek more and higher degrees to earn remotely the same amount of money as their male peers. ”

            That’s a baseless assertion meant to dismiss what is obviously a serious problem that will have an impact on your boys for decades to come. Systematically dismissing the needs of one sex to favor your own is sexism.

          • Jeff Middel

            Was the argument that we’re switching to a matriarchy, or that there are major areas of already existent equality and even disproportionate inequality in favour of women in our society? I think the issue is that contemporary feminism sees a radical pendulum swing from patriarchy in our society (which for lack of a better word would be a matriarchy without some of the nurturing stereotypical expectations of societies).

          • so what would it look like to head for equality? Should we always veer to the side of patriarchy b/c we might accidentally get out of balance in some statistics? And is it possible there’s other reasons men aren’t going to college besides women?

          • Becky

            There are more women in the world than men, so it seems that there should be (slightly) more women in college. Also, I do not believe we need to strive for 50/50 in all job fields. Equality doesn’t mean we are the same, or have all the same talents. There are going to be certain jobs and feilds that lend themselves more naturally to the gifts of different sexes – equal opportunity is what we are shooting for. So it seems that nurturing fields would be expected to have higher percentages of women, and heavy lifting jobs would have more men. But are women able to work in construction without the catcalls, and are men aloud to be nurses without being labeled as unmanly? We are shooting for equal opportunities and rights, not equal statistics in all things.

          • Hannah Decker

            So women might be getting a disproportionate percentage of college degrees awarded nowadays. So what? It’s not as if they’re paid more for these degrees than men are for theirs. Unfortunately I think your single piece of evidence suggesting that our society now privileges women may actually work against you: women must seek more and higher degrees to earn remotely the same amount of money as their male peers. No, the patriarchy is still alive and thrashing. http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2013/03/27/college-graduation-gender-salaries/

          • Jeff Middel

            This article refutes your “more women than men” argument in that there are more men than women in the UK but more women (and increasing) in university.


          • Anne_Hedonia

            That same article you link to quotes an educational expert who suggests that one of the reasons for the greater number of women at college is that they tend to get better grades BEFORE college. Would you suggest that women stop doing so well in school, to give men more of a chance?

            The greater number of women in college is ONE data point in a world in which men still hold the vastly larger number of high-paying jobs; important positions in politics; far more men hold high executive positions in companies; and women are still mocked, belittled, and called ‘sluts’ and ‘whores’ for daring to suggest that the insurance we pay for should cover our birth control, just like it covers Viagra and Cialis.

            We have a lonnnnnnnng way to go before we’re even equal, much less matriarchal. If there are more women than men graduating college, all I can say is: Wow, that must really suck (eye roll).

          • Rachel

            Some argue that our school systems are not set up in ways that help boys do well, which might explain girls getting better grades. I think we can recognize the challenges men do face without losing sight of all of the challenges women face, and I think it will strengthen our arguments to do so.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            Absolutely right – I think (from personal observation, reading, and knowing a lot of teachers, for some strange reason) that there IS truth to that point.

            And just to clarify, I recognize and take very seriously the challenges men face. I’m actually in the middle of writing an article for a women’s site, which talks about the ways in which society makes men’s lives difficult. It has been incredibly interesting and educational to write – I have been interviewing men for months, to find out what their challenges are, how they cope with them, etc. In no way do I believe that men “have it easy” – and, ironically, many of their hardships can be traced right back to sexism, as that cuts both ways, for sure.

            That having been said, I’ve been female for 46 years… and have had to learn how to exist in a society that believes I’m less valuable, and automatically dismisses, to some extent, what I have to say. It’s getting BETTER, but it’s nowhere near gone yet, this exhausting and outdated concept that women are less valuable than men. It was just a bit ironic, after an article listing a whole slew of ways in which women are still being discriminated against, to read comment after comment holding up this one data point about women graduating in greater numbers for the first time in history, as (apparently) the one noteworthy or important injustice.

          • edtastic

            “That having been said, I’ve been female for 46 years… and have had to learn how to exist in a society that believes I’m less valuable, and automatically dismisses, to some extent, what I have to say”

            Men experience the same thing but they don’t get to complain about it the way you do. Not every man is heard or respected. These stereotypes in our heads about other peoples lives are as misleading as the ones others use against us. You were taught to look at the world that way but a man who get’s ignored is taught to blame himself. Another thing men are taught to do is shut about their problems and suck it up because nobody cares. We see a lot of that here and it’s not uncommon throughout the society.

          • edtastic

            Well we probably have to do more to encourage boys in school the same way we did with girls. That means focusing on their needs. It’s something that’s long overdue and if not for a generation or two that were taught boys always have the advantage we would have already gotten it done.

            “The greater number of women in college is ONE data point in a world in which men still hold the vastly larger number of high-paying jobs; important positions in politics; far more men hold high executive positions in companies;”

            Wow you just demonstrated why it never got done. You don’t use a few men at the top to dismiss the needs of millions of men at the bottom. These are our children not pieces on the chess board.

          • Jeff Middel

            And yet, the point remains that there are indeed more men than women and more women in higher level educational institutes (which was the point I was demonstrating).
            Notice the down-voting on my facts though? Do you wonder why that is?
            Such honesty on here. I guess supposed feminists are this kind of honest and I can expect this in the future. Hostile beyond reason.

          • PublicNightmare

            I guess these silly comments that lack merit from Jeff is what we can expect from angry older white men.

          • Jeff Middel

            So my lack of anonymity is used against me by an anonymous coward? nice!
            But if you open your eyes you’ll see the violence on this board via down-voting (yes, I’m co-opting a very broad definition of violence via new feminism). 😉

          • PublicNightmare

            Jeff, you are welcome to use my name. It is Stacey. Your comments were so fluffy and cute. I love how you think there are more men than women. It is almost like you know the popular articles of men’s magazines.

            Isn’t it adorable you think there is violence on this board because of a little down vote. You poor thing. Should I get a band aide for it?

          • edtastic

            “There are more women in the world than men, so it seems that there should be (slightly) more women in college.”

            FYI: There are about 50% more women than men in college while men there are 2% more women than men in the country. The current ratio is around 60% female to 40% male and that’s consistent from associates to masters.

            I’m not surprised you don’t know about it because as a society we aren’t even having that discussion. The gender gap in higher ed favoring women is about 30 years old and still growing.

          • PublicNightmare

            Largely this has been men’s choice not to attend college. They had all the same opportunities (and more) as women, but choose not to go or work hard for it. Easily they could have made better decisions. They can take the blue collar jobs and leave the white collar jobs to those who thought getting an education was more important….besides men look so cute in those blue jumpers.

          • edtastic

            Of course it’s men’s choices but when women were doing this we encouraged them to make different choices. The same is going on with the push for women in STEM and women in tech. We go out of our way to help girls choose one area of study but we won’t fight to encourage boys to get a degree. That doesn’t make sense. We’re too quick to dismiss our obligations to our sons and super enthusiastic about the success of our daughters. Our boys aren’t running well on autopilot. Let’s do the adult thing and guide them to a better future.

          • PublicNightmare

            I definitely agree with you. I think we need men need to get over it and compete with the women. If I had a son, I would encourage him to go to college. I’m raising young women, so the point is mostly moot for me…but the young men I encounter will be encouraged to go to college. We need them to check in. not out.

          • Jeff Middel

            This is a bit of an unfair response in that when there are less women in a given field the question is rarely, “What are the other reasons?”. The response has been affirmative action to correct the imbalance. This is an apparent example of discrimination in that when the balance favours women there is no corrective measure taken to re-calibrate the numbers. Would you have responded this way if there were considerably more men in university than women?

          • Gray Adams

            Define considerable. In line with actual population statistics? No, that wouldn’t be a big deal. Now explain to me, what is the ratio of women to men in the world, and what is the ratio of women to men in college? How big is the disparity between those two ratios?

          • Jeff Middel

            I posted a link to an article (which was of course down-voted). This site and conversation is not about truth, it’s about reinforcing preconceived notions about feminism and popular opinion.

          • EM

            I suppose if enough men believe and recognize that universities are favoring women more than men, and rally enough around their cause (as women have around theirs), any imbalance will shift. When someone feels their rights are being infringed upon, and speak up, and rally awareness and support for their cause, people will listen. The feminist movement proves that. A lot of progress has been made. I see quite a few examples of men standing up for equality – one major area is in sexual assault. Men are raped sometimes (albeit rarely) by women. Sometimes a woman will physically abuse her male spouse. Sometimes men also feel bad about the “perfect standard” society expects of their appearance, just as women are. Most people posting comments have stated (as do I), the desire for true equality. Have a nice day :)

          • Jeff Middel

            The post voting and responses to evidence on here is enough to convince me of people’s true desire for equality.
            I’m interested in true equality and always have been.
            New feminism is not. Which is what I have demonstrated numerous times with evidence from external sites. Church feminism is decades behind what is going on in critical feminist movements today. But people on here don’t want to know about that. They’d rather believe the myths they’re being fed.
            There is so much information that contradicts people’s misunderstandings on gender issues but they just don’t want to know.

          • edtastic

            Affirmative action is already being used to keep male numbers up at universities.

          • #confuzzled

            That shouldn’t happen, and it’s a problem.

          • Jeff Middel

            Not according to the evidence I’ve posted. Do you have evidence to support your claim?

          • edtastic

            “Men are being admitted with lower grades and test scores,” said Scott Jaschik, editor of Inside Higher Ed, which conducted the survey. “While a lot of people don’t like to talk about it, a lot of colleges are basically doing affirmative action for men.””


            “Britz, the admissions dean at Kenyon College, wrote that her institution gets far more applications from women than from men and that, as a result, men are “more valued applicants.” Britz discussed a female candidate who was considered borderline by the Kenyon team but who — had she been a he — would have been admitted without hesitation.”

            Read more: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/03/27/admit#ixzz2kgRCgYRM
            Inside Higher Ed

          • Susan

            As a college professor, I would argue that the inequality in college enrollments is not due to the development of a matriarchy. It’s because many young men don’t work/study as hard because they don’t think they need to; they believe that jobs are just out there waiting for them. Young women, on the other hand, see a need to prove themselves and earn jobs. It’s not an issue of women’s greater power; it’s an issue of male entitlement.

          • Susan… it seems like “an issue of male entitlement” is really at the heart of many anti-feminist arguments. We’re so used to tremendous privilege that an even playing field feels like “oppression” to some dudes.

          • Jeff Middel

            Thank you. Yes, I felt “entitled” when I applied for a job and was explicitly told they were hiring women for the job. Or when in a major field in my city there was an affirmative action campaign to hire specific groups of people (none of which I belong). But this is anecdotal and contrary to the popular opinion on the Christian board, so it’s suspect and will get down voted. The truth often does.
            Privilege exists as society norms (macro events and generally historically) but not in micro events and is therefore specifically false.
            For example to say that caucasian men are privileged because there are mostly caucasian men in parliament denies the fact that the men in parliament (and women for that matter) belong to a wealth class that makes them privileged and has nothing to do with race or gender.
            Ask the men who are trying to provide for their family but have gotten laid off how they’re enjoying their privilege.
            When you preach about privilege as a general truth blanketing an entire society you’re hurting the people who are affected the worst. Congratulations.

          • guest

            lets try to expand our thinking outside of the realm of the countries in which we live.. this may give a better perspective..

          • Jeff Middel

            Thank you, yes. So when someone says “women can’t be sexist” because men have a position of dominance within society, they ignore the existence of matriarchies which have culturally persisted in the world today. Again, generalizing is generally false.
            Incidentally, the blog above is referring to incidents in the countries in which we live. That is the given perspective.

          • guest

            Jeff… i was trying to help you look beyond what you know and consider the overwhelmingly slanted “gender situations”, if you will, in many cultures and people groups around the world. You must look beyond the very rare number of matriarichal socities that you may have heard of which you feel give adequate backing for your arguments. While I can personally feel for your situation in not getting hired for a job because of your gender, I can also make a reasonable assumption that you have had in your life more than one or two job opportunities. This cannot be said of many women around the globe. The same point could be made with regards to opportunity for education. No one would disagree with you that we (speaking as an American) have had and continue to have much privelage (both men and women), whether earned or taken, but even so, inequality undeniably exists like a persistant pestilence and surfaces in the tell tale symptoms of unrest and strife between genders. You must also accept the fact that history will always weigh on the shoulders of the current generation whether or not you were specifically involved in any area of gender inequality. And thus as a male in this time you will undoubtedly feel the backlash of years of pent up pain stemming from inequality. I do not support anything that would take away your rights or make you feel inferior but I do hope for a genuine equality where everyone is valued and their voices are given equal weight and their ideas equal credence.. a society where the truely most qualified candidate or university applicant would be chosen with a blind eye to gender, but we are a very long way from this place.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            FWIW, I think you’re terrific. Very well put.

          • Jeff Middel

            Of course. Partisanship.

          • Jeff Middel

            That backlash is sexist (and specifically discrimination).

            Also, to insist that there is historically a monolith of gender and/or race privilege is to seriously ignore or revise the truth of history. History exists in countries other than the western world.

          • “to say that caucasian men are privileged because there are mostly caucasian men in parliament denies the fact that the men in parliament (and women for that matter) belong to a wealth class that makes them privileged and has nothing to do with race or gender.”
            How exactly did those rich, white men in Parliament become a part of the “wealth class” in the first place?

          • #confuzzled

            Whatever it is, it certainly doesn’t extend to all white males.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            Do you truly believe that wealth has nothing to do with race and gender?! If so… well… that must be a lovely bubble to live in.

          • Jeff Middel

            When Chelsea Clinton forewent the usual steps of elevation in the corporate world (those of becoming an intern), was it her male status or was it wealth privilege?

          • edtastic

            Wealth isn’t correlated with gender because the sexes share their money. In fact women have control 2/3 of the consumer wealth in America.

            I think you are the one who needs to get out the bubble of assumptions. Race affects wealth because they didn’t intermarry with wealthier whites. The money tends to stay in the family lineage.

          • Jeff Middel

            And so we see the disparity in response right on this comment board. Someone posts examples of church sexism (anecdotal) and the response is sympathy and understanding. I post personal experience of my own (anecdotal) and it’s down voted. Is that sexism or just outright denial of my experience.

            By the way, there is huge difference between church feminism and feminism in the academic world today. There are decades of theory that the church is lagging. I’ve tried to demonstrate those differences, but it seems despite giving linked evidence, denial prevails.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            Micah, that feels very true to me, and I wonder how we go about combating that. I see the same paradigm in, for example, the increasing number of people of color in society, and how many white people are terrified to give up an inch of privileged ground, responding with anger (based on fear, of course, of losing privilege).

            I suppose some degree of that desperate clinging to privilege is unavoidable, but it is very hard for me sometimes to understand why more men don’t see how unfair it is for them to have had so much more privilege and opportunity, for so long. Somehow it’s “unfair” when women suddenly are graduating college in greater numbers – but, as one guy said above, the fact that men earn more money than women for the exact same job is “a distraction”. Hrmhh??? (puzzled head-tilt).. sigh.

          • Privilege is one hell of a drug.

          • edtastic

            Privilege is a argument based on stereotypes. We supposed to fight stereotypes not reinforce them because it suites our agenda.

          • carrie

            How do you prove the need for feminism? Read the comments posted about an article about feminism. Proof positive!

          • edtastic

            It was unfair when more boys were graduating than girls in the 1960’s which happens to be the last time we had a gender gap this big in higher education except then it was favoring boys. Half a century later the roles reverse and the women’s activist have nothing but contempt for men bringing it up. History will judge you just as harshly as it did the men who refused to embrace REAL equality. Unmotivated girls were a problem and now it’s motivated boys. Maybe we should stop this game of putting down one sex so the other may get ahead.

          • edtastic

            Are you going to tell a 10 year old boy who can’t read he’s suffering from entitlement? Seriously check your own bias against boys.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            Yes. Exactly. Example: I’m 46, so I’m old enough to have lived in a time before computers. When I was in 4th grade, our school got two TRS-80s, and offered a class in programming in BASIC.

            I was immediately smitten with the idea of programming, and signed up for the class. Only to find my name repeatedly scratched off, with notes written in the margins: “NO GIRLS ALLOWED” or “THIS IS COMPUTERS NOT HOME EC” – sigh.

            So I went to the teacher, a total douchebag named Mr. Krebs. He told me: “This class is really more for boys, since they’re the ones who will be getting jobs in computer science – why don’t you just wait until all the boys have had their shot.”

            It took weeks of my tiny, unstoppable feminist mom, writing and petitioning and lobbying, until Mr. K would relent. I ended up taking that class, putting up with mockery and anger, being belittled and – twice – physically shoved off the chair in front of the computer.

            Now I am a professional in computer science, and I am always conscious that I have to strive to be extremely good at my job – just being mediocre is not enough, and tends to lend credence to the vast number of people who still think women are somehow of inferior intellect.

            My point is: In a world in which women are not paid as much as men for the same job; in which most high-level executives and politicians are men – women DO have to try harder to achieve. Good thing we’re up to the task, but it seems absolutely ludicrous to me that, the second there are more women than men in one data point (college graduates), it’s suddenly just the worst injustice in the world.

          • edtastic

            “n which most high-level executives and politicians are men – women DO have to try harder to achieve. ”

            Neither most men nor women work these jobs so your point is a meaningless to 99% of people. Half of middle managers are women and that’s as high as most people will go.

          • #confuzzled

            I don’t think many people (particularly straight dudes) have a problem with female college grads. I think the issue would more be discrimination in favor of women by colleges.

          • edtastic

            I that case we have feminist should stop telling boys they will be better off when that’s not the case. The consequences are already apparent because the gender gap in higher ed is 30 years old. If boys aren’t working hard then maybe it’s because we as a society stopped encouraging them.

            ” it’s an issue of male entitlement.”

            It’s an issue of really bad women pushing a narrative that marginalized the needs of boys because they’d rather focus on girls. You are literally casting young boys in the roll of bigoted oppressor and that’s sick. We need better educators than you.

          • Gray Adams

            How are they rapidly shifting? Simply mentioning three examples (I’d love to see some sources for that, by the way) does not make a compelling case for the idea of an impending descent into an Amazonian dystopia.

      • Melissa Schenkel

        As a nurse, I’d like to share that there is an ever increasing male presence in the nursing field. We welcome it. Men make good nurses as well as women do. However, I think that society as a whole views nursing and other nurturing type roles as the feminine domain, and so many men do not think to enter into it. Until men are included in the nurturing roles, you will continue to see them dominated by women. After all, even in the 20’s and 30’s, women could be nurses. I agree that men need to be equally represented in my profession, and I encourage them to join me in a dynamic, rewarding career with tons of opportunity.

    • Didn’t Jesus come to reverse the curse?

    • beebee

      Weird. Totally weird. So men don’t have to work anymore either? I see farmers doing the “man” curse everyday. Strange ole Christian view if you ask me.

      • guest

        yeah “the man curse”.. except now we have tractors and harvesters and a myriad of other equipment.. not to mention pesticides and GMOs and.. oh yeah all those laboring in the field who dont have white skin.. hmm.. poor farmers..

    • Johann

      Whough whough whough, since when are Christians freed from the consequences of their sin? They’re forgiven their sin, and saved from hell, but freed from the consequences?

      If a Christian shoots someone, they can’t go “Oh LOL sorry, I’m saved from sin’s consequences!” and go free. Similarly, one of the consequences of sin was thistles etc…and guess what? They’ve been here ever since Eden.

      We can fight those consequences, and as you pointed out, improve them (farming equipment etc), but to say we’re free of them altogether is simply not true.

      • It seems like you’re arguing that gender inequality and the oppression of women is a natural punishment for sin, and so we shouldn’t fight it. I simply think that’s wrong. I say, do justice. Love mercy. Walk humbly. Live as citizens in the Kingdom of God. Give room to the oppressed.

        • Jeff Middel

          Except when men are oppressed, right? Because they’re privileged.

  • Logan81

    Thank you, Michael. Most people don’t realize just how hard it is to be a white male these days. It’s a good thing I’m bisexual; otherwise, I’d probably have been relegated to the role of someone’s trophy husband by now. I don’t know how you straight guys do it….

    • possibly the best comment ever. you sir win the internets for today. Everyone else can go home.

      • Edee Lemonier

        or she could just credit Tracy Morgan and 30 Rock for saying it about 4 times in a row in a single episode of one season.

        • an-g

          that awkward moment when you thought someone above you was responding to someone, but they were actually responding to someone else…

          • yes. very awkward. very.

    • Beth

      I love this comment so much I want to take it out behind the middle school and get it pregnant.

      • Boy, that escalated quickly.

        • Logan81

          I know, right?! She could’ve at least offered to buy me dinner first….

          • Anne_Hedonia

            But that would open you up to accusations of using your sexy, sexy commenting ability as a transactional tool! Men like you pretend you like irony and cleverness, but we women know you’re just in it for the free food!!!

          • What do you wanna bet she won’t call you afterwards?

          • Logan81

            They never do. :(

      • rina

        wow beth, this is the problem with our society, you just see him as some sex object to be used, then made to make a sandwich, then toss him away! This is why I’m a masculinist…poor men :( men aren’t here just for sex and sandwiches!

        • erbmon

          You’re a failure.

      • Now imagine if I guy said that to a woman.

        Gotta love the double standards of feminism.

        • BruceMcGlory

          So, what you’re saying is, that you lack the ability to detect sarcasm and humor.

        • theillustratographer

          a guy did say it. but to a burrito.
          she’s quoting tracy morgan from a 30 rock episode.

        • carrie

          Tracy Morgan always makes jokes about getting women pregnant. People laugh and a good time is had by all. But by all means, continue to miss the point.

    • edtastic

      You know what sucks for straight white men? That people like you think it’s cool to mock them as if there is no depth to their person beyond your shallow stereotypes. These men have problems like everyone else. They suffer abusive mates, loss of children, suicide, homelessness and a host of other problems PEOPLE are known to experience. Life isn’t this game we can divide up by race and gender. People are people and they all have to deal with crap. Making it so that only some chosen few victim classed can get compassion in our society is injustice not social justice. The cause of equality wasn’t about making the historically oppressed a bunch of smug abusive bullies. It was about uplifting humanity as a whole by choosing to give a damn about others.

      • LiveFromATX

        this issue is so complex that i don’t even want to venture into making a personal statement, but I love your comment.

      • kalliguy

        I’m sorry. You lost me at “..what sucks for straight white men.”
        Yes, everyone experiences hardship as human beings, but I do not think that ACKNOWLEDGING race and gender as significant factors in one’s life is necessarily a “game” as you state. Our society has mad it so that Straight White Males succeed. So what sucks for some straight white men? Not NEARLY as much as people who come from communities that have been historically disadvantaged for centuries.

        • StraightWhiteMan

          ” You lost me at ‘..what sucks for straight white men.’ ”

          Well, that about sums up why men’s rights groups have no problem finding members. It IS actually possible that even though there aren’t enough female movie leads there are ALSO other problems that can be acknowledged?

          • edtastic

            I don’t care about movie leads because I’m focused on how people are actually living. The petty stuff get’s so much attention because those who have the most media access are the real children of privilege you should calling out. Since when was a CEO job or a Film lead a concern of the man or women on the street? Seriously that’s not social justice. Jesus would not be demanding more lead roles for women in movies right now, he’d be in the ghetto or some forgotten town in Appalachia trying to help some people.

          • Deonne Williams

            Then why aren’t you there, instead of complaining about a satire? All I heard was “It is so hard to be a white Christian male.” White Christian male in North American is the least persecuted group of individuals ever. Move on.

          • edtastic

            It’s really not that simple. If you define a group as never needing help or having problems you might just ignore those in that group who need attention. White christian males exist at all class levels and also make up substantial proportion of our veterans. It’s unimaginable that a group like this wouldn’t have any problems.

            The persecution issue as it relates to males comes in the form of policies that assume males needn’t be treated fairly because they simply have so much going for them. That’s false because in reality men and women share many of the same life problems. If we address those of women and not men then we are treating men unfairly. That has happened a lot over the years. It’s impractical when addressing the problems of men to distinguish between black, white, Hispanic, and Asian men.

            Most people don’t know of those 4 mentioned it’s white men who have the highest suicide rate while black men have the highest murder and incarceration rate. We can deal with the issues of all men at the same time just like we do with women. All that needs to happen is a climate of compassion to emerge which won’t happen while feminists actively resist the idea of helping men as a gender.

            How do we get feminists to understand men’s issues? By teaching them about them. At the moment the only real tool that seems to have substantial reach is the internet and since feminists won’t go find the information themselves men have to bring it to them where they can be found. While feminists feverishly work to counter claims of male victimization many others will recognize the problems and demand change from feminist themselves.

          • WordyLibrarian
        • #confuzzled

          Straight white males do not necessarily succeed, and there’s nothing about being a straight white male that means you can’t be historically disadvantaged.

          • zeroequality

            Yea, I’m an in debt jobless alumni white man, age 23 and haven’t been hugged in 8 years. Does anyone care? Definitely not women or Micah J. Murray who probably has a lover.

          • #confuzzled

            I guess that’s vaguely pathetic, but you don’t necessarily represent straight white men who don’t succeed.

          • Myrdhale

            You, like many others, are facing economic discrimination. And contrary to your claim, feminism does care and does fight for your cause, as fundamentally feminism aligns almost perfectly with general progressivism.

            You’re hardships are real, and nothing in feminism dismisses them. But think about the fact that some women are in the same situation as you, with the added discrimination they face in hiring practices, politics, reproductive rights, and sexual assault risks. Gain some perspective, and then understand why feminism focuses on certain issues more than yours.

            Then do the right thing, and join the fight to remove all systemic discrimination, economic, gendered and racial.

          • Sounds like you need a hug.

          • Myrdhale

            But being a straight white male will not in itself disadvantage you, where as being a woman can and does. That is the difference.

          • #confuzzled

            Actually, being a straight white male may disadvantage you, while being a woman may not.

            Where would you even get the idea that no one discriminates against men?

          • Myrdhale

            In what way would being a white male disadvantage a person? There exist no systemic bias against a white male purely based on their race or sex. There is no assumed weakness, no presumption of inferior mathematics skills or emotional instability. Men can be discriminated against, but their gender is not the source of that discrimination, because under the current system the majority of the power still resides with white men.

            It is possible for men to be harmed by presumptions made of them, such as the stigma against men showing emotion or seeking treatment for mental health issues, but those are not barriers preventing that man from pursuing any avenues. Economic discrimination does affect many men, but that is, again, not due to their gender. Historically disadvantaged white men do occur, you are correct, but their disadvantage is not rooted in their race or gender, but rather their circumstances, most often being born into poverty, which is rapidly growing as the greatest barrier to a person’s well-being across North America.

            And you are incorrect, being a woman will, inherently, place barriers in a person’s life to the options available to her. That any single person does not encounter those barriers in their life does not negate their existence. These are barriers like the aforementioned assumption of weakness or weaker mathematics skills, among a host of others, which will have a very real effect on the life choices many women are presented with.

            For the sake of argument, let’s say a group does decide to exclude white men. This single group is not indicative of the same kind of systemic bias that exist against women or minorities, and this group’s decision will not demonstrably harm the man’s well being. The systemic biases present in society will harm those they are set against.

            Straight white males do not automatically succeed, you are correct, and many will face individual hardships that are just as valid as any other person’s. But the cause of their hardships and lack of success is not their gender, nor is it feminism.

        • edtastic

          The society is set up so those with wealth and education get ahead regardless of gender or race. Very of these people will land top jobs because they wouldn’t be top jobs if there were lots of them. The issues of the masses are not about getting top jobs. For the masses it’s very much about working class issues which impact everybody in a meaningful way. Stuff like the lack of rising wages, healthcare. quality of schools are the big issues not the petty crap surrounding most gender politics. Racial politics has somewhat more relevance only because it’s so easy to identify the poor by race.

          The white male bashing is a waste of time at this point and a dangerous subversion of the moral high ground social justice enjoys.

          If you are lost then go watch that I have a dream speech a few more times and remember he died while promoting a poor peoples movement.

          • kitty

            Wow, please stop speaking for ‘the masses’. As a poor person, I think you are referring to me, and you make me want to vom in my own mouth a bit so yeah, stop it please. Many of the worst effects of gender disparity are suffered by poor women. Oh, Ed thinks the feminization of poverty is trivial and wants to tell everyone how the world ‘really’ is. Give the guy a cookie. Whatevs. And while I don’t have no interest in anything a white guy ever says,- some of them are very smart and interesting – it can be a little annoying when one of them completely denies the intersectionality of oppression because blah blah outdated marxist claptrap. It kind of comes across like – fuck your lived experience poor women, I can refer to a famous speech and I’m edtastic. Ladidadida.

          • Christine Spencer

            Poor transgender Islamic women of color from any arab country.

            I challenge you to even find this person. Odds are they are dead.

          • Liz T
          • Cado

            But women are much less likely to wind up homeless, which is a big part of what makes poverty so hard and so frightening. If you’re a man on the streets, you’re on your own. If you’re a woman, people will be much more likely to help you.

            With that said, I don’t see how it is at all helpful to talk about who has it worse. The point in talking about the problems faced by straight white males is to ensure that it’s never forgotten as when faced with these discussions it’s like poor white guys don’t exist. The ultra successful white people number very few relative to the total population, and workplaces are becoming much more diverse at every step of the corporate ladder. The assumption that white + penis = success was never true; the only things that were true at certain points in history were not white = marginalized, or not male = fewer career options.

            I also find it very disheartening when people try to frame the modern era as if it is a time when you cannot succeed if you are a woman or you’re not white. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Most of success boils down to what you’re able to do with what you have. If you’re born wealthy, you have to try and screw it up no matter what color your skin is. If you’re not, you have to fight a lot harder for what you get, and while that fight may be more difficult for you because of your skin color, it might not be. It’s not a given. There are so many other factors that play into things – up to and including the fact that while racism isn’t completely dead it is absent in certain communities – that saying someone can’t succeed because of their circumstances is not only likely to be untrue, it’s a disincentive for trying to be successful on the part of those poor people so many are supposedly so sympathetic toward.

            My experience as a white dude from a white trash background who grew up in an abusive home without health insurance is that I was absolutely invisible to everyone. I could have rotted in a ditch somewhere and whoever found me would have been happy to lump me in with druggies and call it a day. The fact that people like me are basically invisible speaks of a much bigger problem, and it’s a problem that’s made clear when people will acknowledge the struggles of people who are or were in a similar position but still guilt them for having the audacity to say their problems matter to and that they don’t want to see them trivialized because other people also have things to deal with. It’s a special kind of evil to basically invalidate the experiences of millions of people just because they happen to be of a certain skin color or they have penises.

          • “But women are much less likely to wind up homeless, which is a big part of what makes poverty so hard and so frightening. If you’re a man on the streets, you’re on your own. If you’re a woman, people will be much more likely to help you.”

            Actually, getting forcibly roped into prostitution isn’t help. An awful lot of women wind up homeless every year. You just don’t see them on the streets because they wind up trafficked and on heroin in very short order.

            Also, the idea of privilege isn’t supposed to be about claiming that individual members of privileged race/gender/sexuality groups don’t have certain sets of problems, but that those problems don’t land on them just because of their race/gender/sexuality. The concept also encapsulates that certain things accepted as “normal” and “inevitable” are only regarded that way because the idea of “normal” was formed around what is normal for the privileged class. For example, it’s considered “normal” to pay women less, despite equal responsibility and ability, because they may take maternity leave. But it is unthinkable and “abnormal” to consider paying women more because their larger bladder size means they spend more of the working day actually working. That’s a very trivial example, but it illustrates the idea of the way norms are weighted.

          • Jackanory88

            I agree with parts of that, but:

            Re. Homelessness?

            That’s a joke right? As an equalities writer in law school I can tell you both sexes can be trafficked and are trafficked. But women are more likely to be because prostitution is geared towards mens wants. But to pass homelessness off as an ‘equal chance’ because you don’t see the women because they’re trafficked is quite simply false. Men are far more likely to end up homeless and that’s a fact, don’t make things up to win an argument.

            And bladder size? Wrong.

          • Jeff Middel

            I’d like to see hard evidence of that as a human trafficking ring in Toronto was just broken up and all of the victims are males. ALL of them!

          • dorson12

            there are more women’s shelters, and more shelter beds for women, than there are men’s shelters and shelter beds for men. plain truth. outside us, such as in asia, homeless young women are socially accepted to move back in with parents, while homeless men are failed men and live on the streets. but instead of addressing all the gender problems, we zoom in on a handful of them on one side, like subway cars, and leave the homeless men to die on the street. because patriarchy!

          • Cado

            Yet again, much of what you’re talking about here doesn’t apply specifically to women, nor can it be said that on the whole certain troubles are much more likely or guaranteed to hit someone because of their race or gender. That’s why I can’t accept the notion of privilege as it’s used within social justice circles, and it’s also why I keep going back to saying it doesn’t matter who has it worse, all that matters is that we address problems when they become known to us.Whether it’s a man or woman getting trafficked, it needs to stop. Whether someone is facing extreme challenges because of their race or because of circumstance, we need to find ways to help them.

            Nearly all of what comes out of the feminist camp these days seems to be predicated on making others wrong for rejecting a framing device and using that as a reason to puff up one’s own ego. They’re bigots; they’re willingly ignorant; it doesn’t matter if they ultimately want the same things because if they reject feminist theory there must be something wrong with them. That doesn’t accomplish a damn thing, and I don’t see how it will ever be possible to create a better world by elevating one group’s problems above others, especially when a lot of those problems impact far more people than the social justice crowd says they do.

            Rape is a human issue, not a women’s issue. Poverty is a human issue, not a race or women’s issue. I don’t have a single problem with individuals or groups who want to focus on a particular aspect of these problems or a particular segment of the population, but it sickens me when it leads to the marginalization of other people within the minds of the public. Whether you’re sick, homeless and broke because of a bad economy or because you were born into a poor black neighborhood, you’re still sick, homeless and broke, and something should be done about it.

          • edtastic

            “Oh, Ed thinks the feminization of poverty is trivial and wants to tell everyone how the world ‘really’ is.”

            Ed actually reads statistics and knows your full of it.

            “In 2012, the poverty rates by gender were
            13.6% for males
            16.3% for females”


            Wow look at that massive 3% gap. Woe to the poor women…

            Clowns like you are easy to knock down because you think your so cool for buying into group think. The problem is you didn’t do the work it takes to validate your group think like a person whose truly fighting from a unpopular position. You toss out clap trap one liners to a crowd of enthusiastic supporters to validate your ego. I challenge popular ideas with FACTS and face down vitriol form immature wanna be social justice advocates who really joined up so they can feel superior to somebody.

            This is grown up biz, get it together. I make my own cookies…

          • glorybug

            You really like cherry-picking. The poverty rate in 2012 for chil­dren under age 18 was 21.8 per­cent. For someone who also complained that all the women have advantages in family courts, and get custody etc., by virtue of their gender, then you’d have to assume that the majority of those under-18 kids are being parented by a woman.

            Why do you dislike women so much? Must make it hard to find romance.

          • edtastic

            I googled and grabbed the first quotable link. Why are telling me poverty rates for children instead of women?

            “For someone who also complained that all the women have advantages in family courts, and get custody etc., by virtue of their gender, then you’d have to assume that the majority of those under-18 kids are being parented by a woman.”re

            You do understand that people can have more than one child right? Look you exaggerated a data point and I called you on it. That’s that.

            I’d like feminists to not suck at what they do because the lies, sensationalism, bullying and exaggeration are hurting the cause of social justice. If you grew up in a era where tens of millions of lives were riding on these fights you might behave yourself a little better.They didn’t take well to stupid and immature then because that’s what the opposition would use to dismiss you. People are laxed because what’s left is light work until you look at the poor. Identity politics is dragging is down. Time for some class warfare from the left while the right is on it’s knees.

            “Why do you dislike women so much? Must make it hard to find romance.”

            If most women were like you I would dislike them but their not so I’m doing just fine.

          • Jeff Middel

            Very telling that you’ve so easily engaged ad hominem attacks and attacks on personal relationships. You assume, of course, that relationships are heterosexual.

            Very telling and prejudicial.

          • glorybug

            Tired and done.

            I love men. I have two boy kids because of my relationships with men. That I was married to. The same man.

            So, pretty much fuck you. Which is what you’ve been pushing for. Because assholes like you are always looking for a fucking scapegoat.

            I love my boy kids. So, Fuck you. They are not stupid kids. They are feminists because they get what happened to them and what they lost out on because of your BS court shit. Because it’s all about not paying shit and getting “equals”… except not really equal.

            My kids are not stupid, so fuck you. They are smart boys.

          • Kenny

            “The society is set up so those with wealth and education get ahead regardless of gender or race”
            Now lets go ahead and take a look at our “society” and see who have the access to wealth and education. OH DAMN…. it’s white men again, can’t seem to get away from this.

          • edtastic

            No it’s not white families have the resources not white men. I’m so sick of this bull crap from whites who try and make half their population into a victim class. If the other groups weren’t so marginalized by white power they wouldn’t have been forced to hang off the coat tails of feminists who hijacked social justice in America decades ago while nonetheless having direct access to all the wealth, power, and resources white men established over hundreds of years. I try to be diplomatic about it because that’s how real minorities have to be. We can’t run off at the mouth like white women because it would turn off the white people.

            This generation doesn’t get it because they haven’t lived though the previous decades when it was all to clear what was going on. You are consolidating power for whites by playing a shell game where mom get’s the benefits instead of dad but whites still run the show. Their still the majority but the fact is Romney won the white male and female vote so don’t tell me I don’t know what time it is.

          • dorson12

            yet more women in college today than men, and more women than men with college degrees. http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2011/gender-gap-in-education.aspx must really be counting women that aren’t women or something.

            your assertion is untrue.

          • Jeff Middel

            Evidence? Or just your hyperbole?

          • Christine Spencer

            Society consistently favors wealth. Education…not so much…but education might help with wealth.

            Example: Transgender people are better educated, by far, than the general population. However, they lack wealth and employment. As a result they are considered almost fair game with targets on their backs. *HALF* attempt suicide when they come face to face with the reality of their lives. Their peek earning capicity is almost universally the day they come out.

          • edtastic

            The problems of transgender people are apparent but they have serious problems that would cause anyone tremendous stress. It’s like complaining that people with mental illness are troubled because in a sense being born with a male or female brain without the complementary equipment would confuse the hell out of anybody. They want to pair off and date like everyone else but their in this strange category that doesn’t fit most peoples preferences for partners.

            That said we’re talking about around 1 in 500 people.

          • Emiliawasframed

            Oppression is intersectional. It does not exist in a vacuum. Class, race, ethnicity, gender, ability, sexual orientation, and other classifications all come together to create differentiated degrees of oppression. One cannot be more or less important than the other because causes of oppression cannot be so easily disentangled or pinpointed, and to suggest that they can is to silence already marginalized voices.

          • edtastic

            Interescionaliy is tool for white feminist to co-opt the struggles others to strengthen themselves. Before that the respective groups actually had independent voice that was heard. Now it’s drowned out by a army of privileged young women insisting they know how to solve all of our problems which are magically caused by patriarchy. I don’t want to come together with a group of people who think putting down men and spreading negative stereotypes about them is the secret sauce of social justice. I happen to be a black man and the intersections of your idealogy and my peoples welfare appear in direct conflict with 8% of our male population in prison and 70% of children being born to single mothers. DO YOU GET IT?

            Well aside from that I also think you are full of it and wouldn’t know oppression if it hit you in the face because none of you had to live through it. You take the talking points from decades earlier and recycle them instead of doing what needs to be done which is modernizing arguments and to focus resource where it’s needed. The need certainly isn’t the cause of women who are the most sympathetic group by a wide margin.

            You undermine the cause of social justice with these gender games. We don’t have a anti racism movement but some how we manage racial equality. That’s because it’s real at it’s core and the marginal people it helps aren’t the sort who have the social influence. That’s really being on the margins not married to the people in power.

          • Sarah A

            So, would you prefer white females to not use their voices or consciences or efforts to go against the oppression that people of color endure in this society? As a white queer female, I can say that I certainly do not know what it feels to be a victim of racism. I will never know. Can never know. I am poor but I am privileged because of my whiteness. I do have some level of awareness of the super messed up racist attitudes and stereotypes that people hold and I have listened to fellow human beings when they speak of how systemic violence affects them and the people in their communities. Tell me how it would be more useful for me to just shut up and not speak out against racism when I see it and to not use my time and efforts to contribute to social justice causes that are working against the systems and screwed up practices that continue to lock up that huge percentage of the black male population? Or, tell me what I SHOULD do. Do you just have such a distaste for white women that you can’t handle them caring about the same things you care about? Just because someone can’t know exactly what your life experience has been because of identity differences doesn’t mean that their concern for social justice should be nullified or useless. Enlighten me.

          • edtastic

            “So, would you prefer white females to not use their voices or consciences or efforts to go against the oppression that people of color endure in this society?”

            That sounds like some kind of social justice extortion racket which has been used to coerced other groups to get behind white women whether or not they really wanted to.

            ” As a white queer female, I can say that I certainly do not know what it feels to be a victim of racism.”

            It’s nothing special. Oh wait was I suppose to tell some long heartfelt story a my oppression? Well it’s like this. Imagine if some people treated you bad for no reason. Yeah it’s like that. I think most people can relate. What’s internalized is probably more profound so I’d say imagine not fitting in somewhere and trying to fit in. Yeah its like that.

            Just shutting up about racism is what black people learned to do long before racism diminished. Even today if we complained about white people all the time they wouldn’t want us around. We know what side the bread is buttered on and play along to get along. The grand hope is one day everybody will be seen as just people and you won’t have to be in a in group to get the in groups attention. Divisive identity politics actually get in the way of mainstreaming so down with Public Enemy and up with Jay-Z even though the situation of blacks is about the same as it was 30 years ago relative to whites except with way more people in prison.

            The white ladies like to keep white men on their toes so poking the bear is just good times. ‘Holla back’ about that ‘slut walk’.

            “Do you just have such a distaste for white women that you can’t handle them caring about the same things you care about?”

            The liberal white man and women are the main source of protection minorities from against white supremacy. We don’t have a choice because at a practical level it’s your country. We can ask you nicely to let our people go and wait. We can do or say something crazy that might make you feel something. Our justice wasn’t about getting exceptional treatment from men who loved us, it was making sure the people who didn’t want us around didn’t deny us the opportunity to feed our families. You can consider that a built in sense of humility.

            “Or, tell me what I SHOULD do.”

            Most major male issues hit blacks harder: school graduation rates, degree attainment, incarceration rates, fatherless homes, and male on male violence.

            If whites don’t endorse addressing these things at the federal level blacks won’t get the benefit. The upside is they affect whites also but we need a climate where passing legislation to help men is possible.

          • TheGoldenWizard

            Through my research I’ve found that in the western world, it is unlikely to be the white woman who is most oppressed (and often she is hardy ‘oppressed’ at all – I cannot justifiably speak for women in other parts.)

            If anyone, it is the black man. Or most certainly this is true in the US where the privatized prison system and law enforcement quotas are mainly geared towards the lock down of the primarily black male population. Good luck with equal opportunity post jail time.

            It amazes me that there is a fair amount of referencing of the civil rights movement as though it were actually victorious. I’m not sure if anyone has spent much time looking at what the late 60s/70s gave birth to but it wasn’t all that much more freedom – it was, however the rise of the boho and the commodification of everything, including all of the counter culture rhetoric and imagery, that allegedly freed women and blacks from oppression.

            You might also want to pay mind – ‘feminists’ – to how much your talk is probably about to and presently is being commodified in every direction by big business.

            Real change is made through action, not blaming. Action tends to be, for example, if you’re underrepresented, going and getting a degree, ideally in STEM, maybe making your own female superheroes – or fighting tooth and nail to make a film (not about being a feminist), possibly not having kids, rather than gang busting and hatin’ on all the dudes. Pulling the false victim card is generally a move made for dominance – a banal form of manipulation.

            Yes, indoctrination over gender totally exists and it’s not in the favour of females – or for that matter – the majority of males (green, blue, brown, black or white) – it’s in favour of cash – and at this point in the global market, that’s WAY more than just cash – that’s assets of all kinds. In fact, you (feminists) might want to think of your feminist arguments as more cash in the coffers of those whom you call the ‘patriarchy’ and you might want to name check to see who those people you call the ‘patriarchy’ are because the assumed patriarchy are all real people – They could be anyone, Beyonce, even you: They’re anyone who knows a good financial opportunity.

            Incidentally – and I REALLY mean incidentally, I’m a white woman who definitely agrees with women doing well but not through playing the victim card, ranting ad hominem attacks at anyone with a counter view. I believe in human rights – equal rights for all humans. And as dogs, using fMRI scans, were recently found to sentient in the same way as humans, in animal rights as well.

            Respect to edtastic for attempting to get a valid message through a lot of clutter and also a few really great comments of other posters.

          • TheGoldenWizard

            On the take action front, probably one of the best things that can be done, is to study up –

            international legislation is a very important area going forward –

            If you have a balanced view of the world, don’t tend to resort to ad hominem attacks (as in can engage in a level headed and highly manipulative debate), then study law and fight for human rights in places where you can change the law.

            And if you encounter, say, racial or gender barriers, yes you’ll have to fight harder but the harder we are, the tougher, the better fighters we can be.

            When you get there, take others, fighting the same battle, with you.

          • Jeff Middel

            And even to suggest that kyriarchal stratification gives an individual privilege regardless of external or mitigating factors is insidious and destructive.
            It’s the generalizations of popular movements like new feminism that are creating more problems than solutions by alienating not only some of their own rank and file, but also those that are supposedly historically privileged, victimizing them by pre-emptively silencing them.

        • Kira

          The issue is that you’re not pointing anything out at all. You’re blaming every straight white male for your problems.

          Just like many Feminists blame transgendered ‘men’ for their problems. Even though, out of all the groups, they suffer more oppression than women, homosexuals or other ethnicities.

          Just like many Feminists blame white homosexual men for “female oppression”, as if somehow that they can “pretend” to be straight white men makes them privileged.

          When you’re argument for blaming people who could have access to privilege if they were born rich and had everything handed to them ends up blaming an African-American can “pass for white” because his father was Italian and he was born with very light skin, it means your argument is full of shit.

          What next, blaming Obama because he “could pass for white since he’s half white”?

          If you’re entire counter argument relies on “hurr mansplaining” and “lol men can’t get raped”, after someone’s given you a detailed refutation of your misandrist idiocy, that makes you no different than every conservative Republican actively trying to deny others their rights.

          • Leah

            It seems that instead of attempting to understand other perspectives, you all are playing the game of “who suffers the most?”

          • KrisDStar

            Yes, and who benefits the most? Men. Men cause more harm to women and other men than women cause to other women and to men.

          • Jeff Middel

            YAY! We have a winning post that is blatantly sexist (if women could be sexist)! And it’s up-voted 5 times (so far)!
            So we see where the prejudice on this board is.
            Thank you for showing your true prejudice.
            I hope my son and daughter have a better future than to have any interactions with bigots like you!

          • KrisDStar

            That’s because I came with facts, sweetness.
            You might want to try those.
            Your opinion is worthless unless you have facts to back them up.
            I’ve already shown the stats on abuse in another post.
            You can look them up yourself.

            Your daughter, with you as a father, will have a lot of hard work to do to make sure she doesn’t internalize your sexism. And your son, well, we all know what happens to boys who don’t respect the rights and bodies of women. They wind up as one of those stats that I previously mentioned.

          • shabby_chic_chick

            Very true. I get really fed up with these “cry me a river” types who just love to participate in the Oppression Olympics. All people have suffered – that’s just part of life.

          • Jeff Middel

            You don’t see people supporting the dated version of feminism here doing that exact thing?

            So you only use this as a trump card against people you disagree with.

          • KrisDStar

            “Just like many Feminists blame transgendered ‘men’ for their problems. Even though, out of all the groups, they suffer more oppression than women, homosexuals or other ethnicities.

            Just like many Feminists blame white homosexual men for “female oppression”, as if somehow that they can “pretend” to be straight white men makes them privileged.”

            What? That is complete bull. They do no such thing. You’ve totally just made all that up. Do you know how many feminist groups fight for gender rights?

        • gallan

          “Our society has mad it so that Straight White Males succeed.”

          As a straight white male, I must have missed this memo. When exactly am I supposed to get this promised success? I’m 32 and it hasn’t happened yet.

          • Alexander

            Age 30. Other then that, same position as Gallan.

            I’m still waiting for these advantages in which people constantly go out of their way to tell me I should have because I was born a straight white man. News flash people…..that shit isn’t coming!

          • Alexander, Gallan – Do you run a 25% change of being raped? No? Congratulations. Your advantages have kicked in.

          • gallan

            I’m sure the fact that men are less likely to be raped than women is quite comforting to every straight white male who has ever been raped. Would you tell them they’re advantaged because it’s less likely to happen again?

            Seriously though, I never used the word “advantaged,” nor did I deny the fact that straight white men are privileged. I used the word “success” in response to a very specific quote. “Our society has made it so that Straight White Males succeed.” The implication being that all straight white males achieve success. This is false.

            I’m well aware that as a man, I have an inherent advantage over women in a patriarchal society. But having an advantage does not equal guaranteed success.

          • adamson

            Equally congratulations to all the women in this thread, as you are 50% less likely to be mugged, and 30% less likely to be the victim of physical assault. In a Canadian case study of 1000 men and 1000 women in 2009, 125 men were found to be the victims of either sexual assault, robbery or physical assault whilst 111 women had been victims in the same categories. One could argue that rape is a more emotionally damaging crime than the other two. However, if most men are the shallow, egotistical, self centered misogynists that you seem to think we are, then surely a serious injury, say, severe disfigurement, would be a traumatic event?

            Where are you getting your statistics Micah? According to the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network, one in six American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape, not one in four. Of course rape is terrible, of course men have certain advantages over women, I don’t think anyone is arguing with you on either of those points. Personally I believe that there should be more severe punishments for rapists, but my belief in what you would describe as a feminist issue doesn’t make me any less concerned with the issues that do effect my gender. I’m sure you or others will dismiss these as not worthy of consideration, but examples are: the skewed rate of child custody between men and women, men are 7% more likely to be unemployed than women, male suicide rates are 3-5 times higher than that of women, etcetera.

            Whilst, as a human being, I applaud you for raising awareness towards issues that concern women, I think you do men a disservice by implying that our lives are perfect. Surely the solution to the problems of both genders can be solved with more efficacy if we start working together a little more?

          • Cheryl Lynn

            stats from Rainn and you’re right 1 in 6 for women but also 9 out of 10 are women and 1 out of 10 are men

            Who are the Victims?
            Breakdown by Gender and Age
            1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).1

            17.7 million American women have been victims of attempted or completed rape.1

            9 of every 10 rape victims were female in 2003.2

            Lifetime rate of rape /attempted rape for women by race:1

            All women: 17.6%

            White women: 17.7%

            Black women: 18.8%

            Asian Pacific Islander women: 6.8%

            American Indian/Alaskan women: 34.1%

            Mixed race women: 24.4%

            About 3% of American men — or 1 in 33 — have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.1
            In 2003, 1 in every ten rape victims were male.2
            2.78 million men in the U.S. have been victims of sexual assault or rape.1

          • Jeff Middel

            That actually is not what male privilege is even about. Wow… talk about a misrepresentation what privilege even means.

          • Michael

            You, Sir are operating below the average for your peer group then. If you can’t succeed in a system that’s tailored for your success, then you won’t make it anywhere. You failure, or lack of success doesn’t mean that there is no deep seeded bias in this country.

          • gallan

            You’re right, it’s possible that I’m operating below the average for my peer group. It’s possible that every man struggling in life is operating below the average for his peer group. When I’m walking the picket lines in front of Walmart on black Friday, I’ll be sure to remind all of the men (and only the men) that they’re operating below the average for their peer group. While I’m at it, should I tell the women that they’re right where they should be, since you seem to think that men who struggle to feed their families are failures but women aren’t?

      • Lauren Chessare

        You are right, many white men have AWFUL things happen to them- but I don’t think this article is arguing that these issues don’t happen for men in any way, shape, or form. Never does it make this point or even have this as a focus in the implied thesis, reasons, or examples. I think it is making the point that feminism has strived to stop oppression for women- not turn the tables and ruin men’s lives- unless their livelihood is solely based on oppressing the women they know. Truthfully, anyone who cares about the women in their lives should be feminists (regardless of gender). Feminism just strives to end sexism and give women equal opportunities. If this insults you, I would examine your values before misconstruing the message of a simple article.

        • ojojoj

          Feminism strives to end sexism? I think by its very definition it’s a root cause of sexism. It strives for equality but equality FOR women… that seems to me like your still viewing this like their black and white, and ignoring all the grey. I acknowledge we need more women to fill more diverse careers, and objectification is an issue, but these are issues for men as well, regardless of the ratios. I just think if your going to call for equality, then don’t label yourself, or your movement, a word that brings focus to only one side of the issue.

          I agree with all the issues presented in the comment, but I view these as human issues, not women’s issues. How about using a term like humanism or something. I very much care for the women in my life, I also care for the men in my life too, and the trans, queers, blacks, whites, yellows, handicapped and any other label you want to think up. I don’t think I need to identify as a feminist to preach equality. I assume theres men you care for, do you also identify as a masculinist?

          • billis

            I agree with ojojoj. I think there are certain facets of life where Women’s rights should seek further improvements, but there are also some – though fewer – facets of life where men’s equality have been ignored. And no, I am not talking about the torturing of teenage wives in the Middle East or the likes; as a matter of fact, that is exactly what ojojoj is pointing out, such an issue is more related to “humanism” than it is feminism.

          • Lynn

            If you haven’t noticed the treatment of people of different races, religious beliefs, or genders over the past five hundred plus years, it’s probably escaped you that equality isn’t a default position for humankind. We’re really tragically fond of picking apart people for their differences and using them to elevate us or demonize them. It takes conscious effort to attain equality.

            Men’s rights has become an asinine movement because, rather than proposing solutions to ANY of the problems MRAs like to talk about, they’ve decided to harass feminists and women, use inflammatory rhetoric for shock value, and respond to all debates on gender with “What about the men?” There are no male rape victim crisis centers staffed by MRAs. There are no domestic abuse shelters run by MRAs. They have pointed out relevant problems, but choose to blame others for them instead of finding solutions.

            The idea that just ignoring all of these conversations is the way to go is a lazy, oversimplified answer invented by people who don’t suffer from the discrimination and oppression that other people do. You can’t just stop talking about racism or sexism. You can’t just assume that those problems will go away on their own. Civil rights didn’t happen because all the white people in America realized that they needed to love their black brother. Equality comes from action, not complacency.

          • edtastic

            “Men’s rights has become an asinine movement because, rather than proposing solutions to ANY of the problems MRAs like to talk about, they’ve decided to harass feminists and women, use inflammatory rhetoric for shock value, and respond to all debates on gender with “What about the men?” ”

            You mean they do what feminists have been doing for half a century…

            If feminist think that sort of thing is wrong they shouldn’t have done it to others. The primary weapon of an MRA is a the truth in readily available stats. Since feminists have gotten by with one sided arguments all they need do is provide stats on men and women at the same time. You know what that is? EQUALITY!

            Seriously the men matter and you don’t support equality if you think they don’t If your game is to play this selfish we are women so everyone must focus on us game then men have no interest being played by hypocrites who only want to use them.

          • Pixie Schrimpf

            I don’t believe that anyone is attempting to deny that men have rights. This is a statement to let people see the degradation and second class status that women are relegated to, that is so common in this world that it is not even recognized by the majority of the world’s population. Women are equal to men and should be thought of and treated as such. Which by the way: so far does not happen.

          • dorson12

            wait, women don’t have rights? i’m pretty sure they do. very little of the women’s rights movements of the developed world have anything to do with rights and have much, much more to do with perception, expectation, and acceptance. but when it comes to men, “men have all the rights so shut up.” the same standard — one of perception and expectation and acceptance does not apply to men as it does to women, and that is inequity.

          • edtastic

            “This is a statement to let people see the degradation and second class status that women are relegated to, that is so common in this world that it is not even recognized by the majority of the world’s population.”

            Do you know the key concerns of those women in those countries? I seriously doubt you do. They could use feminism but their is a reason it emerged in the developed world. It’s a relatively privileged affair for people who have lots of choices and stable societies. You aren’t going to enforce gender bias laws in corrupt state that struggles with issues like child slavery. You can see from the original article that this man wasn’t concerned with women in the third world. His goal was appealing to women in the first world who head up a movement of waning relevance.

          • Pixie Schrimpf

            Ed, I am so sorry that your pride has been hurt, HA, not. I am sorry though that women have been forced into what ever men believe they belong in. In one part of the world, they are stoned for taking their child to the doctor without a male escort. In another country they have no possessions regardless to whether or not they are married. And in this country they are paid less and are in the process of being told what they are and are not allowed to do with their own body,and even excluded from the voting process Maybe that doesn’t matter to you, But it sure as hell matters to us. This is not God or anybody else’s law , this IS discrimination. If you and I commit the same crime I want to receive the same sentence as you. If you and I work the same job; I want to be paid the same as you. I want the same respect that you receive on a daily basis. I am not young in body so I do have some experience. This is not youth talking. This is a woman fighting for her children(sons and daughters) and grand daughters to have less discrimination aimed at them on a daily basis. Are you so blind that you do not see that discrimination exist? Open your eyes and ears, man. The real world is out there, all you have to do is listen to the pain.

          • jeremie lederman

            well then, the best thing to do for the cause of justice is to get even.

          • PresenceLOVE

            Everything you just said is total crap… there is not one instance around the world where a woman was ever stoned to death for taking her child to the DR without a male escort! Your tripping! Women’s lives have always been more valued then males!

          • Tawali

            I don’t agree with you that feminism is a ‘relatively privileged affair for people who have lots of choice and stable societies’ nor that ‘you aren’t going to enforce gender bias laws in corrupt state…’

            I live in a country that falls into the ‘low human development’ category of the Human Development Index. The country is not stable, suffering from internal conflict for the past decade with attempts by the military and the people to overthrow the government. However, despite this instability and the other issues like those you mention, the government has put in place and is starting to enforce laws stating that 25% of
            government seats must be filled by women. In October 2013 this country was ranked in the top 50 countries for women in national government, far higher than ‘developed’ countries like the US, the UK and Ireland.

            As for what you said on the article only appealing to women in the ‘first world’, I think that at least 7 of the statements cover the issues women face here and the remaining statements just require slight adjustments to fit the context of the culture. There are active and engaged feminist movements here. I can assure you feminism is not a ‘first world’ movement but a global one. But if you do not look past the end of your nose how will you see it?

          • PresenceLOVE

            Uhhhhh, women have more rights and privileges then men do… just look at rights over the children and reproduction… women have a monopoly over reproductive rights (especially after sex) and men have zero say (after sex) about anything! This is godlike power over life and death that women have that men do not have and is just one example as too how women have more power then most in most facets of our society!

          • andy

            I think the point being that the oppression of women and their rights for centuries (and yes, up until today, open your eyes) and yes, in a way that privileges men in our society in a very systemic and often blatantly obvious way, would be the rationale behind women standing up and saying “no more!” So to stand there and complain that you don’t get to do so even though society is inherently designed to favor your condition, and to argue your case that just because bad things happen to all of us somehow levels the playing field in which those bad things happen is just a bit ridiculous, and the type of mentality this article very aptly counters. No one here appears to be arguing against universal compassion, but part of the problem is people of privilege (race, class, gender, whatever) who want to deny any responsibility in perpetuating that system when we all live in a world that has provided us a wide strata of privileges based on meaningless criteria. You can stand back and say “it’s not my fault,” but that’s really not the point at all, and anyone who does disengage from the conversation with that type of mentality is obviously not interested in working toward solutions, so why are you here bellyaching that others don’t appreciate your stance? People who walk around blindly asking for sympathy because other people want support and they find that offensive is just about as oxymoronic as it gets.

          • edtastic

            “So to stand there and complain that you don’t get to do so even though society is inherently designed to favor your condition”

            That’s a myth not a reality. Men are not a homogeneous group that shares a brain and that shallow view of the world is itself a problem. By stripping men of individual identity you enable space for bigotry. A lot of what men’s activist fight against comes from public policy premised on gender stereotypes. People don’t realize men are half the rape victims in the military or around half of those suffering domestic violence. The prevalence of sexual victimization in studies is a lot higher than people think. When the media reports it they only show numbers for women because that’s what we’ve conditioned them do.

            This is an era with clear cut gender bias against men in meaningful ways but you don’t see why I’m challenging the people who created that bias to change their approach? This is about gender equality right not just lashing out at the male gender?

            “You can stand back and say “it’s not my fault,” but that’s really not the point at all, and anyone who does disengage from the conversation with that type of mentality is obviously not interested in working toward solutions, so why are you here bellyaching that others don’t appreciate your stance?”

            I’m educating people and I don’t need their appreciation because I have facts they can’t change. Since their perspective is built on a house of cards all I have to do is knock a few down and move on. They’ll still be feminists but they might ask more questions. The best men’s activist are former feminists and as I lefty I guess I count. My personal favorites are the ladies because when they say it’s ok to feel compassion for men it feels like I got permission from someone objective.

            If you haven’t noticed I’m experienced and have gotten used to winning my arguments. The bar is set low people being reduced to tossing out definitions of feminism as if people didn’t know what it is. Feminists haven’t had to seriously debate anyone for a long time. It’s a new day and constructive opposition exists.

            We fight racism around the world but we did so through equality.
            We fought for religious freedom under equality.
            We fought for freedom of sexuality under equality.

            What gives with gender? I’ll tell you what gives. It’s backed by white women who are the second strongest social political demographic on the planet behind to white men.

            Nobody can shut them up not even white men because they really really like white women and relish the chance to prove it. Even in the olden days men put a show on for the ladies. Chivalry is patriarchy like feminists say. Change will come by education or dare I say privilege checking.

            No I’m not welcome but real social justice goes out your comfort zone. Men’s activist have already changed the way many feminist approach gender and freeing more from the tyranny of group think is our noble goal. If people stopped cherry picking facts to confirm their biases we wouldn’t have to bother.

          • BruceMcGlory

            Get some help before you hurt someone. Being as delusional, angry and bigoted as you are is bad news.

          • loveallthepeople

            Show me “clear-cut gender bias against men”, and I’ll show you how it’s a functionary of patriarchy.

            Seriously, it’s like a magic trick. It’ll BLOW YR MIND.

            Also: feminists “created the bias”… lol. You’re just precious 😀

          • RaygunJones

            There is pretty much nothing of substance or value in your entire rant.

            Trust me: you have never won an argument with anything about anything, so no, you haven’t gotten accustomed to it.

            You are paranoid, narcissistic, and delusional. You’re a small, sad man who feels like he can’t control his own life, so you’ve decided that your best hope for regaining a sense of autonomy is fabricating in your mind the overarching boogeyman of “feminism.” You do not know what it means or how it really works, but you’ve found other delusional, paranoid, narcissistic men online who have told you a lot things that sound like they ought to make you mad at feminists, and so you come to forums like this claiming that you have “facts” (which you don’t) on your side; you claim that feminism is a “house of cards” (which it isn’t), and that feminists are biased against people like you (which they aren’t). You claim all of this because it’s easier on your ego to believe that feminism has made your life what it is, rather than accepting that you’ve probably made a lot of poor choices.

            I know this won’t change your mind, but I hope maybe you’ll catch a glimpse of how other people see you when you say these sorts of things. You are not an enlightened prophet bringing truth where once there was darkness. You’re just an embittered egotistical loser who would rather blame women than himself.

          • Peter

            @RayGunJones: And… way to waste your efforts to engage in discourse by inserting ad homonym attacks when you were doing well without them.

            I’m not sure what makes me feel worse, the guy you’re responding to or noticing how you fail to see the point by becoming the point.

            I’d recommend avoiding to debase any further discussion of this nature by using horrible stereotypes to prove how much better you are. More genuine advocates of change understand that you don’t improve by becoming that which you seek to improve.

            If you think he’s walking in a different direction towards (and maybe even walking away) positive change then simply ignore his possibly trollish comments or lead by example (the latter is always better).

          • sheilam22

            “People don’t realize men are half the rape victims in the military or around half of those suffering domestic violence.” Are you F’ing kidding me??? 1st off people need to understand the word RAPE – men cannot be raped. And where are
            you getting this 50% crap? Are there men that are MANIPULATED into sex with women- sure – but it’s NOT the same as rape. Are there men that are abused by their partners – sure – but not NEARLY to the extent and not even close in
            numbers as to what women endure.

            You really are a piece of work – you men’s rights activists are a bunch of miserable whiney misogynistic babies that are TERRIFIED that your days of dominance and entitlement are at an end – that you might actually have to PROVE your value instead of having handed to you as a birth right. Women have SUFFERED for centuries (and still are) and because we dare say, “ENOUGH”, we are now the bigots? You would not last living as a womam for 1 week. If there are “problem” for men in this society it is caused by men and the gender roles
            THEY created to elevate their weak selves – NOT by women demanding their rights. What planet are you on?
            Just in the past 6 months there has been nothing but a WAR ON WOMEN by the “right” – How dare you spew such BS. You are not “educating anyone” – you are just spewing forth whiney misogyny so SHOVE OFF!

          • Ragnar

            Um, men can and do get raped, please don’t erase an already heavily erased & silenced reality from this discussion – and risk being insensitive to those who may have personally experienced it.

          • Lenna Hanna-O’Neill

            Beat me to it, Ragnar. Sheilam I understand your impatience with Edtastic, but the idea that ‘men can’t be raped’ is HARMFUL and needs to be corrected whenever it is stated. Otherwise, the rest of your comment? Spot on.

          • EdWasRight

            “In its latest report on sexual assault, the Pentagon estimated that 26,000 service members experienced unwanted sexual contact in 2012, up from 19,000 in 2010. Of those cases, the Pentagon says, 53 percent involved attacks on men, mostly by other men.” – Amanda Marcotte – Slate.com

            He’s right and they were victims of other men in 96% of cases. I really don’t think men talking men being raped is a indicator of male dominance especially when they are being raped by other men.

          • dude

            im sorry but you’re incorrect. more men are “raped” in the united states than women in the prison complex. by “raped” i mean physically forced into intercourse against their consent. hope that helps.

          • PresenceLOVE

            Womens lives were always valued more then a man’s… so where is this oppression feminists are whining about? Men have it way harder then women and yet you dont hear most of us whining about it!

          • Karolina de Honestis

            When are womens lives valued more than mens? If you’re referring to “women and children first” you should know that it is a myth. Google it.

          • PresenceLOVE

            I have looked it up. When there are disasters, boats sinking, fires and what have you… It is always women and children first. Same thing goes for hostage situations. They almost always ask for women and children to be given up first. So yea, not sure where your getting your information from.

          • andy

            Looking forward to the day when the anonymity of the internet finally strips people of the right to say audacious, stupid things without having to back them up with actual conversation, compassion and tact. Something lacking all over your wildly aggressive attacks on anyone who disagrees with you and this seemingly pointless discussion since you have no interest in hearing anyone but yourself.

          • edtastic

            I’m ready for that day because I don’t say things I’m not willing to stand behind. The only thing that make me nervous is complaining about white people because you know they don’t like when we go radical.

            I shouldn’t do it anyways but sometimes it’s frustrating watching young white activist people steal the language on the civil rights movement to use it against the entire male gender long after it’s appropriate. I’m not quoting Malcom X when talking about the disparate racial impact in the drug war so why are they going there with men?

            On day one men are singing women love songs and buying them roses, on day two women are marching them in the streets claiming men hated them. Feminist take things too far because they can get away with it. Addressing the relatively benign sexism of today can be accomplished with polite conversation. The thing is they can male bash forever and men will still love them albeit without the roses and love songs.

          • piapass

            “Feminists take things too far because they can get away with it” is in itself a statement that stereotypes a group of people and seperates based on group identification, and yet there you were advocating against this very thing. Hypocrite.

          • EdWasRight

            “The only thing that make me nervous is complaining about white people because you know they don’t like when we go radical.”

            You can see that soon as he did that he got down voted for asserting white supremacy exists but attacking male supremacy is no problem That’s the exact problem with white social justice types he’s talking about. In practical terms by the stats we have the privileged fighting over their privilege while the most underprivileged wait to be recognized.

          • Robbie

            This is not an exclusive weakness of females. Men, males, are tempted by the same thing. That’s why we have government: to reduce the predatory behavior of people. Even nice, decent people sometimes do what they can get away with.

          • tonso

            “The thing is they can male bash forever and men will still love them albeit without the roses and love songs.” or equal pay.

          • PresenceLOVE

            The wage gap is a myth and yet men are still expected to pay for most things!

          • Pixie Schrimpf

            Feminist may at times take it too far , but that would not be the case if men would buck up and quit trying to usurp the rights that women are owed. The fact that women have been fighting for those same rights for over 100 years and are still being treated as less than equal doesn’t tell you something? Ed.

          • PresenceLOVE

            When were men ever treated as equal to women in terms of reproduction and child rights? I thought so! The birth right of a parent too raise their own children is the most important aspect of being a parent and who that controls the rights over children have more power then every other body of power combined… meaning women have more power then men, no doubt about it!

          • Karolina de Honestis

            That may be the case now, but it has been the way it is now for maybe 50 years tops. Before that, children were seen as the mans property in the Western world, and if a woman left her man, she had to leave her children as well. It is still this way in many parts of the world such as the Middle East and Asia.

          • PresenceLOVE

            Wrong…. there is no culture where women have to leave their children because they leave there man. if there is can you please provide evidence of this? Because I simply do not believe you.

          • Karolina de Honestis

            It seems I cannot provide you with links, so google these phrases:
            Custody of Infants Act 1839
            Tender Years Doctrine
            child custody in the middle east
            From Father’s Property To Children’s Rights: A History of Child Custody

          • sheilam22

            OH STFU

          • Lenna Hanna-O’Neill

            …”relatively benign”… Folks, this is not a conversation. It is simply a string of lame justifications for why this mope wants to perpetuate the self-serving status quo. Anyone who can use those two words to describe reality for women in this, or in fact pretty much any, society is just plain delusional.

          • DONEWITHBS

            to quote stats is not equality, to get respect is equality. no men die from rape. men ignore us and talk about us like we are crazy. we get paid less just because we can get pregnant and would have to go on maternity leave. deadbeat dad stats are insane and srs does little to make sure that they are held accountable why women clean up after man’s laziness ever freakin day! Equality? do u know how many times ive told a guy something and they ignore me and as it comes out of man’s mouth they listen? or i get proven right and they do it again and again ignore ignore, and i told u so & i told u so i told u so….Its disgusting!

          • Worriedcat

            “No men die from rape” – check out statistics about suicide among men as result of a previous sexual assault. So yeah, they do.

            Violence against men is also pretty much business as usual in the eyes of society.

            A “Boys will be boys” type of bullshit is prevalent.

          • David Agosta

            I don’t know that you can assume that men ignore all women or talk about all women like they’re crazy. It could be that you’re special. Take the last ranting sentence, for instance. I can easily see where someone might ignore that kind of crazy.

          • EdWasRight

            Men are around 80% of murder and suicide victims so whose victimization is being ignored here? Rape is the ONLY violent crime where women are more likely to be victims than men.

            “we get paid less just because we can get pregnant and would have to go on maternity leave.”

            Women get paid less because they leave the work force or choose jobs with more flexibility. Women who have no children on average get paid the same as men.

            “deadbeat dad stats are insane and srs does little to make sure that they are held accountable”

            Well this is from census.gov

            “Not only do women have better chances of being awarded child support ….

            In spring 1992, about one-half (6.2 million) of the 11.5 million custodial parents were awarded child support; award rates were higher for mothers than for fathers (56 percent compared with 41 percent). (See chart, below.)

            …. they are more likely to actually receive payments.


            When you are bashing men you are also bashing your son’s fathers, and so on. They are people and I think they want to be treated with respect just like women.

          • BruceMcGlory

            You can’t possibly be this stupid. The primary “weapon” of male supremacists is whining that mommy doesn’t fix all their problems for them, with blantatly false “statistics” that take five seconds on google to refute. All you do, you impotent internet warrior you, is whine in online about how women don’t do everything for you, but still let you control and abuse them.

            Yes, men have real problems. And, surprise, surprise, male supremacists do absolutely nothing about those problems, except whine that women didn’t fix them all for you.

            Grow the fuck up.

          • dorson12

            how do you know what solutions mens movements have proposed, do you hang around them and listen to their suggestions?

          • BruceMcGlory

            Yep. And I’m still waiting to actually hear some. All I ever hear though is “waaaaaahhhh women don’t do everything for me, but still let me beat them without consequences” and waaaaah I spent absolutely no time with my kids while I was married, but now that I know it will hurt my ex wife, I suddenly love my kids waaaahhhh”

          • jeremie lederman

            yeah, because absolutes and generalities really bring us together…

            enjoy your universe, star lord

          • PresenceLOVE

            Womens shelters get funding from the gov, men’s do not! Where would MRA’s find work to help men when all the funding goes too women? Men suffer far greater injustices then women but we are told by society to suck it up and be a man… I find the idea of a matriarchy much more realistic then a mythical patriarchy where men rule for the benefit of men but somehow always put the lives of women over those of men… does not sound like a patriarchy to me!

          • erbmon

            Men’s equality had never been ignored.

          • BruceMcGlory

            Get some psychological help before you hurt yourself, please.

          • EdWasRight

            Men’s equality (equality between men) was something that only emerged shortly before women’s equality.

            You have to be ignorant of history to not notice our great civilizations were sustained by mass subjugation of both men or women.

            Humanity also has a long history of slavery. With great irony our slave owning founding fathers championed the rights of men so how could there be equality if they felt the need to fight for it?

            I guess your right. Men’s equality wasn’t just ignored because they often killed men for spreading those ideas. I’m sure some women died fighting for theirs but far less.

          • dorson12

            How dare you suggest that men have any problems. You must be one of those fedora hat guys.

          • DONEWITHBS

            u think that cause yur not a woman and u dont have to live and choose not to see it. its called denial

          • Lauren Chessare

            Women have been historically more oppressed- that’s just the bottom line. But regardless, I feel like we simply have different definitions of feminism. The opposite of feminism is sexism- which would include being sexist against men (though I still find it hard to believe this happens nearly as much). If you feel women should have equal rights, I would call you a feminist- and mean it as a compliment :-) So yes, feminism is in some ways what others may call “humanism”- it just focuses more specifically on gender issues (since race, sexuality, ethnicity, handicapped, etc. deals with A LOT, it is just a more specific word choice for narrowing the topic at hand). Women’s issues ARE human issues- it is just being more specific .And so for the record women can be sexist against women too…. For example, my mom telling me in high school that I would make a great politician’s WIFE was ridiculous. As a high school teacher, I see girls putting each other down a lot too. Feminism is about encouraging people to challenge these gender issues- not put men down.

          • PresenceLOVE

            There is no way women have been more oppressed then men throughout history… men have always been expected to make the greater sacrifice and we were expected BY WOMEN to support them and the family! Feminists are simply taking advantage at the shift in society due to tech and industrial improvement! Its a load of evil lies!

          • erbmon

            All misogyny comes from stupidity. Misanry comes from personal experience.

          • Myrdhale

            This is a really dumb comment, and this comes from an avid feminist. Misandry (as much as Misandry exists) is no more useful to society progressing than misogyny, and is as bigoted an idea.

          • Diego Cervantes

            THANK YOU. Equality should be ALL ENCOMPASSING. The very term in itself is, by its own nature, sexist.

          • Myrdhale

            It isn’t, it only if you don’t understand the roots of the term. Feminism takes it’s name form the suffrage movement that first pushed for the equal right to vote. It means trying to undo the systemic biases on gender inherent to our system, which fundamentally derive from ideas of patriarchal dominance and the subjugation of women. The biases, however, cut both ways, forcing expectations on men just as much as women, hurting both in different fashions. Feminism seeks to undo both sides, not just for woman.

            Prime example is the feminist push for Paternity leave.

            If you are for equality, you are for feminism. Any argument against the movement based solely on the nature of the word is fundamentally ignorant, and exposes a bias on your part that women are out to reverse the imposed gender roles in society, rather than simply do away with them as is the actual case.

          • Lauren Chessare

            I should have thought of the paternity leave issue… props. I just wish people owned a dictionary too.

          • Shawn Harmon

            True..and father’s should also be given equal rights when it comes to custodial parental rights. What makes the mother the most ideal parent by default?

          • Dario

            Technically, the “primary care-giver” is the favored parent in regards to child custody. In short: the parent that spent most of his/her time taking care of the kids, listening to their needs etc. is the parent most fit to educate and raise the kids.

            Here’s where the problem lies: society expects men to be the breadwinners, and women to stay at home and take care of the kids – and shames everyone who does otherwise, for example by considering a man who stays at home and does chores a “pussy”. With this system, the mother is the one who’s assigned the primary care-giver role.

          • PresenceLOVE

            When has feminism ever fought for fathers rights or men rights on reproduction? NEVER… so yeah, feminism is a load of hypocritical bullshit!

          • Jim Trompe

            They actually fought the male pile.

          • DONEWITHBS


          • Molly Effin English

            This is so painful, it makes me laugh lol.

          • Dan

            I don’t think you understand, on a fundamental grammatical level, what the word “equal” means. You can’t have equality “for” women. It has to be equality relative to something. Women can’t be equal to men at the same time that men are unequal to women. It is literally impossible that attaining equality “for” one group would make the other group unequal. And yes, lots of people with lots of different identities face inequality as a result of those identities. That doesn’t mean you can just declare everyone equal and call it a day. Identifying as a feminist means you want women to be equal to men on issues in which gender plays a role. Identifying as anti-racist means you want people to be equal to people of other races on issues in which race plays a role. Fighting for LGBTQ+ rights means you want LGBTQ+ people to be equal to straight, cisgender people on issues in which gender identity or sexuality play a role.

            People are unequal as a result of different facets of their identity. Gender is one of them. Feminists fight for equality on that basis. It doesn’t ignore other issues, those just aren’t the issues we’re talking about right this moment. Identifying as a feminist isn’t about “caring about” women. It’s about recognizing the inequality in how women are treated and doing something about it. You can’t be a “masculinist,” because men are the ones operating with higher social freedom.

          • Michaela

            Wow. This was a fantastic “rant”. No, I am not being facetious. I may be using this as it was wonderfully worded.

          • KC

            While I generally agree with you, I feel the need to point out that patriarchy hurts men as well as women, albeit in different ways. In that regard, there is a place for Men’s Rights. However, there is no reason that the Men’s Rights Movement and the Feminist Movement should be at odds, as they both strive for gender equality. Unfortunately, mainstream media elects to sensationalize the radical subsets of each movement because “ratings”, and a significant majority of people internalize what mainstream media has to say.

            Don’t get me wrong, when “ratings” means that issues like the Incognito situation (Miami Dolphins) get airtime, there is a small amount of good. But unfortunately, this event only means “ratings” because “national sport worth billions yearly; oh yeah, and race”.

            Sucks, doesn’t it?

          • Robbie

            A feminist has made a comment that women’s rights can be no less than men’s and men’s rights can be no greater than women’s.

            This allows men’s rights to be between zero and 100, and women’s rights to be between 100 and ∞.

            Perfect equality being impossible between dissimilar humans, this requires women’s rights to be always greater than men’s.

            To be safe, every man should aspire to be a woman’s personal pet.

          • Windycity

            Whatever happened to you in your personal life, and I presume you have a grudge or was mistreated by women, does not mean that ALL women mistreat men. If you look at statistics around the world it is quite the opposite. The movement relates to ALL the people around the WHOLE world.

          • koolshaker

            Looking up a statist telling me more men mistreat women than the opposite is going to help me how? Its not..I am a blk man & blk women have become impossible to deal with.I googled ” What negative effect has feminism had on the white man”& this sarcastic post is what I found 1st..It has occurred to me that post after post page after page most comments are so broad that nothing gets resolved. There’s hardly ever an example to judge how a person should behave.So here’s one.I took my new girlfriend & her 5 yr old son to a st.park with a $5.entry fee & a map.We pulled in next to the jungle Jim’s & I proceed to read the parks attractions map.My girlfriend got out wt her son & just stood there.He son was anchious to play.She got mad & proceed to pout.I told her to give me a sec go ahead & start playing & I’d be on..I came over & put lil man up on the slide,she went & sat on a near bench.Lil man didn’t know how to slide.So I asked mom to move so I could lay back on the bench to show him.She sucked her teeth got mad again & walked off head burred in her phone.We played for about 10 mins without her & lil man was ready to go.I asked her to join us so he would play longer,she refused So we left.$5 waisted & didn’t get to explore the rest of the park.What are yall’s thoughts?

          • Windycity

            Because your girlfriend is cranky, women around he world should not have equal citizen rights? You make no sense whatsoever. Are you saying that there are no cranky men out there? No men with just plain bad personalities? What exactly is your point here and how does it related to equal rights for all around the world? Your thinking is so narrow minded, that I don’t even know what to say. My bet is that you are looking at women you go to bed with, and then start to look at their personalities. It should be the opposite. You just don’t know how to pick the right mate for YOU. Don’t transfer that to human rights. That is just silly.

          • pbcrock

            My point wasn’t that women shouldn’t have equal rights..My point was women do stupid Shot when they have decent me trying to be there for them & their kids..I can’t lay out my entire life but you proved my point even if to you I didn’t make one..If you were going to respond to my post then why did you go far left in attack & demeaning mode instead of just speakin to my example..Women abuse this Power they have & Good men get tucked in the process..As for that crap where you tried to flip my frustration into being my fault.Thats another common thing most women do they don’t take responsibility for their cheap & they push the blame into the very victims they create smh & truthfully the only people who they can victimize are the ones tryin to help them..Lastly I was tryin to respect her biblically & so we hadent had sex b4 My point.Being cranky as you put it isn’t a fair way to treat a person trying to have your Best interest at heart..

          • Mr. E

            Don’t bother bringing facts to a pity fight.

          • Windycity

            I have only been TRYING, I understand now, to express what feminism means to me to others, but you sir just nailed it. Very concise and accurate. Worded perfectly.

          • PresenceLOVE

            If feminism was about equality then they would insist that men have equal rights with women in terms of reproduction and fathers rights… I have never seen feminism fight for these things and they are the most unbalanced part of society!

          • Karolina de Honestis

            Because you haven’t looked for it, you just wanna sit in your pity-party ignorant bubble and assume feminists don’t care about this issue.

            Also, what have YOU done to fight for equality when it comes to this issue…?

          • PresenceLOVE

            Uh, I have looked for it… HARD and thoroughly. There is not one real campaign that you can link that shows feminism fighting for a mans equal say in terms of having children or having a say as a father. Show me this and I will shut up forever more.

            What have I done? Well, I have stayed as a financial support for my daughter despite that fact that I only get to see her maybe once every few months and only for a few days because of the mothers addiction to control. That’s the main thing I have done. Any other questions?

          • Karolina de Honestis

            I meant what have you done ON THE ISSUE that you complain feminists do not do enough on…?

            I have worked for the childrens rights, including their right to their parents. Here in Sweden we are making important changes to make sure fathers stay home with their children, feel secure enough to report rape, aren’t genitally mutilated etcetera.

          • PresenceLOVE

            I am glad to hear that. Keep up the good fight. You identify as a feminist? Because here in the states, if you claim that women can rape men you are called a sexist straight up. I have heard the Sweden is light years ahead of these issues though, so I am glad to hear your fighting and (hopefully) making ground on these issues.

            I have not done nearly enough to be honest. I donate money to MRA and I am writing a book about many of these issues when I have the time to do so. I dont plan on stopping so here’s to my long term contributions making a meaningful difference in the future.

          • Karolina de Honestis

            Of course I identify as feminist, as I believe in equal opportunity and rights for everyone, no matter their sex, gender, creed, ethnicity, class, sexuality or social status.

            In my experience there are a few misandrists within the feminist movement, however they are usually in minority, and many of those who actually behave like they hate men are oftentimes victims of abuse, rape and such and have a lot of hurt and rage, which would explain their mistrust and anger towards men.

            I have often been called manhater by men and women who try to use it to silence me, or because they react emotionally because they feel targeted or blamed when I bring up societal, structural, cultural problems; when I in fact never voice manhating opinions, because I don’t have them.

            I find women-hating to be much more prevalent in our society, and it victimizes and kills girls and women every day.

            But yes, on the issue of male rape victims of both male and female perpetrators; it is a huge and most often silenced issue that needs and deserves attention. But this is also part of rape-culture and a side-effect of a patriarchal culture; that mocks men who have been raped, who say that men cannot be raped, “real men” cannot be raped and other such vile horrible revictimizing nonsense.

          • PresenceLOVE

            I have never heard of a bigger critic then Feminism when it comes to male rape crime. So this is why I am asking you, if what your saying is for real? Because rape against men is usually a open area of laughter and derision and the number one group doing this? Feminism!!! This is all in the states of course, so I dont know what goes on in Sweden.

          • Karolina de Honestis

            The court system is still sexist. Just like women are blamed for being raped, men are laughed at. That has nothing to do with feminism, but of the remants of traditional gender roles and sexism. I’ve never met a feminist who have or would laugh at a male rape victim in my life.

          • PresenceLOVE

            That must be because you live in Sweden. A friend of mine was drugged and rapped by a large woman… he was never the same after the experience. He told one of his feminist friends that he was raped by a woman and she slapped him and told him that he should be ashamed of himself for taking the attention off of the ‘REAL victims’… yea, my experience with feminists and most men’s is def diff from your own. Also, I have only seen court bias in favor of women, never men.

          • Karolina de Honestis

            If he was indeed slapped by his friend when sharing his traumatic and violating experience of rape, then she is not only a disgrace to the feminist movement, but to humanity.

            I have seen plenty of bias towards both men and women, most of it based on outdated sexist opinions on gender roles. That is why men are too often discriminated in custody battles (women are seen as caretakers and men as useless when it comes to child rearing) and women and men in rape cases; women are seen as instigating temptresses that should know better than doing this or that, men are seen as uncontrollable sex animals always up for it, or ridiculed for not being “real men” who can defend themselves etc…

          • Karolina de Honestis

            I’ve actually rarely, if ever seen laughter or derision towards male rape victims within the feminist movement, I’ve seen it mostly from misogynistic men and women.

          • He means he wants men to be able to prevent women pregnant with their kids from having abortions which is disgusting.

          • PresenceLOVE

            Problem is that women have far more rights and privliges then men do on almost every level of society and that fact is ignored time and time again.

          • Susyqt

            My adult victim iboycriend s still in denial & fearful of mom’d threats so experiences many of issues made. He is forced to dress lke servant & doubts his sexual orientation yet keeps secrets & isolates drinking excessively & misplaces anger. I think he’s hallucinating but won’t seek help & recently had a seizure !? How do I help him ASAP

          • Kieran Pegler

            Equality for women is by definition equality for everybody. Giving women equal status as men is the definition of feminism. Idiot.

          • Mr. E

            Very good comment, and question.

            I note that she has not bothered to answer you.

          • Karolina de Honestis

            Why should we use “huMANism” instead of feminism? You cannot bear the existence of one ONE (1) general word being feminine and meaning equal rights for all Homo Sapiens Sapiens? It needs to be in masculine form as all other general words? I mean seriously…

        • edtastic

          “Truthfully, anyone who cares about the women in their lives should be feminists (regardless of gender). ”

          That label and ideology carries so much baggage. I think it’s extremely arrogant for you to make such a proclamation not to mention this play on “care about the women” is a predictable bit of manipulation.

          Shall I say that any women who cares about men should be a MRA? I certainly wouldn’t because ideologies are a lot more complex than their short definitions. Patriarchy theory is a hot mess and most feminist are running around with ideas based on 70’s era gender stereotypes. Nobody has to endorse that foolishness to care about women or men.

          Even in it’s modern incarnation we see mostly cheap propaganda being used to manipulate insecure college age women into a man hating attitude by selling them on the notion of finding victimization everywhere in their lives. It’s more like indoctrination into hate than it is a social justice cause since the main focus in on finding ways to blame men for all the problems in their lives.

          Feminist today spend more time feeding sexism by crafting a world out of their stereotypes instead of respecting people as individuals.

          • andy

            “Even in it’s modern incarnation we see mostly cheap propaganda being used to manipulate insecure college age women into a man hating attitude by selling them on the notion of finding victimization everywhere in their lives.”

            And that’s not a generalization how? How on earth are you going to support such a ridiculous comment, and even if you could, what basis would you have to use it against the entirety of the feminist movement and the underlying fabric of women’s rights?

            “Feminist today spend more time feeding sexism by crafting a world out of their stereotypes instead of respecting people as individuals.”

            Again, this is an opinion base on something so absolutely generalized and unspecific that it carries no weight in a rationale discussion about bettering our world. So why participate at all?

          • dorson12

            you make generalizations about mra, but men can’t make generalizations about feminism? that’s equal. not.

          • BruceMcGlory

            Christ, you’re an absolute moron.

          • edtastic

            Yes it’s a generalization but one about an ideology. ideologies aren’t people. Their bundles of ideas which can be generalized and attacked as a whole or in part. Women’s rights like men’s rights, black rights, gay rights are built on human equality not feminism. The humanistic principals are more universal, less contentious and unlikely to be made obsolete(unless expanded beyond humans).

            “Again, this is an opinion base on something so absolutely generalized and unspecific that it carries no weight in a rationale discussion about bettering our world. So why participate at all?”

            No it’s a perfectly reasonable synopsis of their positions and arguments. Defining all males as privileged at any given time without regard for persons is entirely based on stereotypes. They try to refine it by tossing in some more stereotypes for other kinds of men and women but it quickly becomes a big mess leading up to Kyriarchy which suppose to organize everyone into a relative oppression index

            Equality doesn’t require all that to work and the confusing mess serves more to empower academics spouting incomprehensible jargon than it does to enlighten masses. Telling people to treat each other the same is easier and far more effective. That’s the one thing we’ve been doing that actually worked.

          • dorson12

            apparently you can’t be both in favor of socially acceptable options and equal treatment for women AND for socially acceptable options and equal treatment for men? that’s the biggest false dichotomy damning any hope of actual comprehensive-as-possible gender equality.

          • Pixie Schrimpf

            Ed I am married for 30 years, i would never allow my husband or my sons to be treated the way myself and daughters are treated. I stand up for my family any time there is an injustice leveled against them. However, none of those injustices are aimed at the men in my life based on their gender. The injustice that women face is much more horrendous than that that a male may or may not face, simply because they are female. The males in my family are permitted to succeed or fail based on their own merit, which is simply not the case for females. My great granny told me I had to be twice as good at anything as a man to receive half of what a man received. It does exist! It is wrong. It does need to be talked about and equality needs to be demanded by males and female alike

          • Carly O’Bryan

            To all who do not understand, please read, “A Vindication of the Rights of Women” written by Mary Wollstonecraft in 1782. The date itself gives you a perspective of how long women have been suffering at the hands of man. Wollstonecraft was the mother of Mary Shelley who wrote “Frankenstein” in 1816, which is filled with feminist messages throughout from Mary, II. I have so many friends who are now suffering at the hands of the “dominant” male in their lives. The most towering tyrannical relationship that has ever existed throughout history has been that of man and woman.

          • thisiswhynoonelikesyou

            Dude, I’m not going to comment on the validity of your politics. I’m just going to tell you the objective truth. Know that the reaction of any intelligent woman (of any age, race, or sexual orientation) to your ah, “revelations” on feminism is going to be a massive eye roll. My guess is that you don’t have many female friends or, if you happen to be straight or bi, much luck with the ladies. This would be why. Or maybe they’re just all man-hating feminists. Yeah, I’m sure that’s the real reason.

          • Lauren Chessare

            Would you be willing to explain with more specific examples? I am interested in your argument.

        • erbmon

          White men need MORE bad things to happen to them.

          • dorson12

            the truth comes out

        • Guest

          You’re right — it’s called marginalization. Because my list of cherry-picked examples of persisting (though much reduced, though we won’t ever admit that, because comparative severity is irrelevant, except when it’s our issues whose severity is greater than those of others) gender imbalances that negatively affect me disproves and renders irrelevant all of your examples of gender imbalances that negatively affect you.

          TL;DR, your complaints are invalid because i have complaints.

        • Anti-Feminist

          Funny you say that because that’s what this post DOES!. It’s basically stating that men have it super duper in life and it’s all just butt hurt if we complain, unlike with women who when complaining get a medal and a new lover. I want equality between both genders, not feminism. This post will make everyone turn an even heavier blind eye towards male depression.

          • DONEWITHBS


          • MysManky

            I feel like you’d be taken more seriously if you spelled things correctly…

          • Lauren Chessare

            Is male depression the result of women wanting equal opportunities… if so, that makes me depressed too.

        • Mickster66

          We’ve heard it all before, we’ve all bent over backwards to make it real, but we are still demonised and ignored, so fuck feminism, it’s day is done, equality is equality for all not only women. This article is more of the same victim feminism we have heard for years and we are sick and tired of it.

          • Lauren Chessare

            “equality is equality for all not only women”- exactly. If it’s only women it’s not equality. I can’t help but think you’re dealing with some personal disappointments and taking it out on feminists. I hope things get better for you Mick.

          • Mickster66

            Lauren, everyone has personal dissappointments, my point is that feminists are the ones who want to take it all out on men as a group, this is where their precious patriarchy ‘theory’ leads, this is where patronising and dismissive articles like this come from. The very name feminism demonstrates that equality is not what these gender feminists want, they want to be the perpetual victim and for men to be the perpetual villains.

          • Lauren Chessare

            But that is far from the truth- I am a feminist who loves my husband, brother, and even had a male “man of honor” at my wedding. I think some women are just as sexist as men- and sometimes are the ones limiting themselves based on gender. Maybe you’ve just had a negative experience- but that is an inaccurate generalization.

        • Mr. E

          I disagree with you. The article is doing a very good job of saying quite succinctly that men’s issues don’t matter a whit.

        • PresenceLOVE

          Feminism has gone out its way to strip men of their power and give it too women… any one who truly believes in equality and real justice should never be a feminist! Feminists do their best to legalize kidnapping, as long as its the mother doing it to the father and not vice versa! Anyone with any critical thinking skills at all could never, in good conscious, be a feminist!

      • loveallthepeople

        Dude, no one is denying that women and men can BOTH go through some serious sh*t in life. It goes without saying that they can. The difference is that women (and other oppressed groups) have to deal with structural oppression, of the kind satirically outlined in this article, in addition to all of the other stuff that life can dump on you as a human being.

        • edtastic

          I’ll tell you something. It’s so annoying to have young white people lecturing everyone else on structural oppression as if they were more expert than those who lived through the era that inspired these ideas. Since when did the white female become the most oppressed person in American history? It’s probably the thing that personally annoys me most this generation of young ‘white’ people. You are profoundly arrogant in the way you talk about things you know little or nothing about except for what you’ve been told by people trying to indoctrinate them into perspectives so radical they would have been rejected in the 90’s despite their being a hell of a lot more to fight about.

          It’s a fairly racist thing to say but I find these young whites playing feminists to be some of the most rhetorically bigoted people I’ve had the misfortune of coming across. I actually find white supremacist far more measured in their approach. They also hate and bully as a group on the margins groups.
          You really think they can judge peoples lives with race, gender, and sexuality which is abhorrently stupid considering the cause they suppose to be fighting for is EQUALITY! If you read something that sounded good it doesn’t override equality. Structural oppression is what the last few generations dismantled for the most part before you got here. Our grandparents are the ones who get to tell us about this stuff not college age kids. They never saw it aside from the rare throw back institution like church running on a 2000+ year old doctrine. Even there the big challenge is getting men to show up on Sunday.

          I’m over educated on gender issues so I don’t find the satire in the article amusing. I find the petty issues being placed out of context without comparable stats for males annoying. It’s equality time not men play cheer leader for the ladies to get a cookie time. If I wanted to go all radical with identity politics I’d easily mop the floor with the pretentious white kids lecturing people on their privilege. They need to shut up or take some ques from grown folk.

          • Kathy

            edtastic, I am 60 years old. I have fought for my rights to determine my fate. I am an engineer. During highschool, I was told that putting me in the advanced science and math classes would be a waste of time since I would just get married and not use the information.
            I worked as a production control supervisor and had to reprimand the men who insisted on cat calling at me.
            When I decided to ignore the oppressive remarks of others, I went back to school and again I met MEN who would tell me that women did not belong in the engineering field. I had to battle my way through out my BS and my MS. My MS program started with 6 women, I was the only woman who graduated.
            So edtastic, YOU don’t know what you are talking about.

          • JC

            BAM. Thank you, Kathy. Thank you.

          • edtastic

            Exactly what point of mine did you challenge? Did someone say there was no sexism in our history because I sure didn’t.

            I think I know what I’m talking about Kathy. You want to ride that victim train without regard for anybody else who needs the power of social justice to get justice today. You’d rather indoctrinate little girls into radical man hating than consider the challenges facing little boys doped up on Ritalin through grade school and dropping out of college at a rate far higher than girls are today. I wonder what kind of women are you? It seems you were raised to not care about men and are proud of it. Since these boys are raised by mothers do you they also teach them to not care about men?

            I can’t take anymore of these excuses about some man cat called me so I get to hate them all or a teacher told me girls suck at math so I’m forever oppressed. It’s 2013 and we need something better for the next generation than disgruntled women looking for excuses to be mad at men all the darn time.

            You remember when men and women used do things like dating and romance was the norm. I really miss that. l but it was gone by time I got to high school. What replaced is something men are still complaining about. I’m in Gen X and 30% of the women in my generation won’t be having kids. It’s the highest on record. We get married later and I hope people can stay together.

            That’s what I’m thinking about when it comes to gender not olden day stories about how men used to treat women so badly on the job but the worst story you got is being cat called by subordinates. I wouldn’t even mention it if I were you because they promoted you to supervisor.

          • DONEWITHBS


          • Myrdhale

            Ahahahaha ‘dating and romance are gone’.

            You are pretty self-deluded. Quite stuck up your own ass, frankly. I mean, it seems like your arguing that Dating and Romance are gone because of feminism! That’s really very dumb, as a) romance and dating are still very much around, you probably just have trouble dealing with people, and b) you think feminism has anything to do with the gender norms, like a guy paying for the meal for instance, rather than those being the institutional biases feminism advocates against.

            Also, it great how you take the one anecdote from one response to indicate that the worst that happens today is ‘catcalls from subordinates’. Things have improved, it’s true, but only someone speaking from deep privileged could claim that they’ve been overcome. Look up rape statistics (And before you start throwing out male rape statistics, yes, I know, they are much higher than most people whose think, but the fear of reporting a rape as a male victim is also another one of the biases feminism seeks to remove. Not to mention the fact that the perpetrators of rape on male victims are by and large male as well).

            Sexism, Racism, and many other forms of discrimination are still going strong, and a person can advocate for one particular group without inherently reneging on aiding the rest. To speak out against those who advocate for it out of some sense that ‘there are bigger issues!!!!’ is nothing but the petulant cries of a very privileged contrarian.

          • balance

            I hope this article has been written with a sense of humour. It appears to have been written with women’s problems in mind and just imposing it on the opposite gender is taking it out of context. We really need to look at where feminism has taken us. Really….Yes, women needed feminism as a movement and it needed to start with a certain vigour and push at the time. Somewhere along the line, unfortunately, we have lost the balance and crossed the line. It is time to scale back a little bit. Where has feminism led us now? We wanted freedom and jobs and financial independence. Now, most women have to deal with more pressures: juggling with career and domestic responsibilities – it has become a way of life. Children don’t get to spend time with mothers anymore unless it is annual leave.

            How does it impact men? Men are not sure of committing to a relationship – they are sick of being used as a means to father kids, getting separated from the kids and seeing them once a fortnight with so many rules, and still paying the bills for fathering those kids. Society and the law need to scale back and find a balance to approach life with a ‘family friendly’ basis and value relationships more.

          • loveallthepeople

            First of all, the article isn’t saying that women have All the Problems and men live lives of candycanes and lollypops. I don’t know why commenters keep trying to pretend it is, but it isn’t. It is saying that the claim that feminism hurts men is bullsh*t.

            Feminists who recognise patriarchy as an actual thing – i.e. all of them – are deeply cognizant of the ways in which patriarchy hurts men as well as women. It’s not feminists saying that men should be strong and show no emotion in times of stress, it’s patriarchy. It’s not feminism telling male rape victims, domestic abuse survivors, etc., that such things don’t happen to ‘real’ men. It’ patriarchy. I could go on, but you get the picture.

            Now that we’ve got that out of the way – we’ve “crossed the line”? How have we done that, exactly? As the article implicitly asks, just WHERE is all this female dominance that a certain set of men keep insisting has taken over society? In the imaginations of men’s rights activists (lol – men’s rights activists :D), that’s where.

            If you’re blaming feminism for the painful death throes of the nuclear family in some sectors, then personally I can only cheer it on in helping to restructure a patriarchal, heteronormative structure which in its most traditional form leaves women strangled of agency, and men drowning in responsibility, expected to function as a strong ‘head’ and prohibited from expressing their emotions. That traditional organization of family life SHOULD be restructured, because it hurts everybody.

            Feminism is VERY clear about the fact that there are no winners in the patriarchy. It simply acknowledges the statistically demonstrable fact that women lose harder – on violence, on employment & workplace perception, on social and economic power power. Look at the rape stats, the rates of male-on-female as opposed to female-on-male violence in our society. Look at the stats on social and political power satirically offered in the article above. Look the f**k around. You won’t have to look far.

            Incidentally, there are as many men being chased for child support that they refuse to pay, than there are stand-up guys desperately trying to see the children their evil bitch-monster exes are gleefully keeping from them. You claim this article only tells one side of the story; what you mean is that it’s not the one side YOU want told.

          • RM

            It’s also annoying to be told that your opinion doesn’t matter due to your race and age.

          • edtastic

            Yes it is but in a way that’s a point in itself. Look at how much dismissal of the ‘white male’ is going on here. Enough with the identity politics privilege games.

            If I were really a white male I’d probably join the Tea Party since they’d actually like them. A white man on the left shouldn’t have to be a masochist. Let’s respect people for being people.

          • RM

            I’ll drink to that! Cheers!

          • Myrdhale

            The reason for the dismissal of ‘white males’ is because whatever hardships these men face, the source of them is not because they are white males. Being white and a man is not a disadvantage, no matter how much someone tries to spin it as one.

            It’s possible for them to face economic discrimination, or be affected by the enforced gender norms (which can and do have very damaging effect on a lot of men), but a white man will not face discrimination in the workplace, in academics, in finance, in politics or in reproductive rights a woman does. For a white man to come in and claim that feminism is ignoring (or worse yet, the cause of) his plights is nothing short of ignorant and foolish.

          • @edtastic:disqus – I’m a white male. Ex-Tea Party, because I realized about 6 months after they started up that they were dealing in delusion and fear mongering. It’s not masochistic to say “Hey, let’s care about equality for somebody besides ourselves.”

            It’s called being a good human.

          • nhr215

            brilliant. says it all. If I could star a thousand times I would. There has never been a brattier, more arrogant, more entitled and more pretentious generation than the Millenials…

        • dorson12

          and in order to fix it we must turn the tables and make men subject to reparations? because that’s where things are heading

      • Jeff Cleveland

        Hoping one day people will realize when a specific group is defended, that it’s candidly sophomoric to retort it with how bad the “other” side has it.

        • Jeff Middel

          And yet when people defend a given group most often they are maligning and/or marginalizing the Other.

      • Kaitlyn Ramirez

        There is a difference between being historically disadvantaged/oppressed and experiencing problems that anyone can face in life. I in no way am attempting to put white men down in attempt to validate the woman’s equality and am in no way blaming the entire white male population, but I do believe that white men should recognize the privilege that they have. White men may deal with abuse and poverty and many other issues that women and people of color alike may face, but you can’t say they are historically disadvantaged. Who is the majority of the government controlled by? Who are owning the most businesses? Who live in the most affluent neighborhoods? Compared to who do you find most in shelters? Who do you mostly find in blue collar jobs? Who are still constantly being stopped and frisked? Who are the most sexually assaulted? Who are the ones being catcalled and objectified in the media? Who are generally being paid less than men even though they are now more women enrolled in colleges and universities than men?

        I am not saying that white men do not have problems, I understand that they do. But using that to say that races and gender are equal? That is obviously not true.

      • Tara Sundberg

        “Smug abusive bullies”, this is what you are calling women? Historically oppressed people? WTF?

        • edtastic

          No that’s what I’m calling white feminists who think they can be jerks because white men will always have their back no matter what. If you want to play these identity politics games I can play.

          • Tara Sundberg

            I’m not into playing games, I just think you misunderstand the whole feminism thing… I don’t have the energy to argue it with you, I simply believe in having an open mind and being careful with judgement. Maybe you’re enrolled in women’s studies at university for all I know… My anecdotal input, for what it’s worth is that 1) I’m a feminist 2) i don’t think I’m superior to anyone based on gender 3)historically and currently women struggle for legal and economic equality in North American society (far more so in some other areas).

          • edtastic

            “historically and currently women struggle for legal and economic equality in North American society (far more so in some other areas)”

            Women are struggling for economic equality in what respect? The historic thing is a no brainier but statistically I don’t see a struggle going on aside from the detrimental economic impact focusing on child rearing might bring.

            I tried to find stats on the net worth of men versus women but it’s hard to determine with so many sharing their wealth through marriage. For female headed versus male headed there are some incomplete numbers (most states missing) with a 1.18 ratio between them with males on top.

            The gender disparities are usual are tiny compared to racial ones. I think the case for gender gaps in wealth and income are easily explained and not resolvable unless women simply chooses not to have children or men get custody 50% of the time instead of 15% of the time. A third option is shared custody becoming the norm which feminists groups like now currently oppose.

          • Tara Sundberg

            So your point is? Racial oppression definitely exists. Gender based oppression exists. Are we actually having an argument about this? Wow, you’ve got time on your hands. Sorry, I’m busy raising my son, on my own, and earning less than a man would be in my same job. I’m raising him to be a feminist and a non-racist, hoping that the next generation won’t have to have these silly debates.

          • Tara Sundberg

            And if that makes me a “smug oppressive bully”, then so be it.

          • edtastic

            “Sorry, I’m busy raising my son, on my own, and earning less than a man would be in my same job.”

            It’s probably your sons fault. Tell him to pay you back when he get’s older… just kidding ..kinda

            Seriously how do you know your getting paid less because you are women?

          • Guest

            And if all of that makes me a “smug oppressive bully”, then so be it.

      • dorson12

        It’s okay to mock men because patriarchy.

        • Jeff Middel

          And based on many studies of popular entertainment and advertising, you are absolutely correct. It is culturally acceptable to not only mock, but physically abuse men and it’s funny.

      • Lorrie Crabtree

        Ahhhh, I was wondering when the MRAs would come out of the woodwork like roaches. You obviously missed the point of the blog… which was sort of directed at you and your “men are being emasculated by feminism!!!111one” cronies.

        Yes, there are issues that need to be addressed that concern men. No one has ever denied that. But men are not yet the poor oppressed saps that the MRAs are whining about.

      • Dana

        ummmm the title of this article is. “How Feminism Hurts Men.” not “how men can be hurt in every single way.” and equality is a concept, how can it have a “cause?” the point of feminism is to push women into a literally equal role to men. The point is, that women are trying to achieve equality and “misandrists” want to keep them solidly in place. The scale is tipped grossly in the favor of men. In order to restore balance and equality matter must be taken from the heavier side and put onto the side of women. In order for equality to truly happen the historical oppressors have to make sacrifices. And when they won’t legislation must be made (historically things such as equal opportunity) to try and restore balance causing a sort of artificial balance. The point is that no matter what men have to give for women to be equal they will never have to experience the wrongs currently placed on women because of a lack of equality.

      • Shawn Harmon

        I feel feminism has further divided this country. It is ripping it apart from the inside out. The ones that are warped & hurt the most are the children. Women have always been the moral pillars of society. Feminism once had a clear agenda, but it has become very distorted and one sided.

        Men have typically been the ones who were expected to work the most awful jobs & even go to war and die for his family. Women want equality but when it comes down to the most inconvenient, painful or potentially lethal task there is it’s still expected for a man to step up and sacrifice his safety and comfort for women and children. Sometimes there’s a woman who’ll step up to the plate, but not often; and usually it’s just to prove a point. One woman wanting to be a commando doesn’t speak for a million women that don’t want any part in it.

        I equate feminism to a company deciding to make all of it’s employees supervisors with equal power and authority. How long will such a company exist? Where does the order start, and where does it end? I think feminism is terrible. Men and women will never be biologically or chemically the same. We both have an equally important purpose..like Ying and Yang. Instead of concentrating on such a one sided, selfish disaster we should and should’ve been concentrating on trying to cure the relative evils in individuales and society that were flawed.

        Women should be treated fairly & in my opinion in many aspects they were always honored, respected and put before themselves by the “GOOD” men. Feminism turned women against men as if it were “ALL” men were oppressive and bad, & that’s very, very far from the truth.

        • acklebee

          I think you’re missing the point. I do not believe anyone should have to go to war first of all. Secondly, women could not vote, wear pants, get divorced, drive.. i could go on and on. I do not know one woman who has not been sexually assaulted in one way or another…. wake up. Most of us are not into man bashing and the good guys we know also believe in our equality.

          • Shawn

            Men, women and children have all suffered atrocities brought about by the evils throughout the ages via the direct or indirect hands or rule of oppressive men and women. Modern feminism is a very selfish and evil movement that places it’s own interests above not only men, but children as well. Statistically most adult male rapists and pedophiles were molested during their youth by female pedophiles. There’s also a startling percentage of male rapists that were raised in single mothers households. Modern statistics also reveal that adult female pedophiles on female children are typically more violent, and oftentimes inflict pain, and/or mutilate the genitalia of their female child victims. Women actually abuse and kill children at a significantly higher rate than men; and evermore so little boys than girls. In heterosexual relationships women perpetuate 70% of domestic violence cases, and lesbian couples have the highest domestic violence rates over heterosexual and homosexual male relationships. Women are in no way innocent in the modern world, nor the past, and what I dislike the most about feminism is that it places women on pedestals dressed in spotless white gowns as if women are incapable of committing acts of evil when they’ve always had a significant role in the oppressive forces of mankind throughout our entire existence.

          • YourWorshipfulness

            I call troll. No one can be that ignorant of cultural trends and basic crime statistics. Go home, troll. No one wants to play with you.

          • Shawn

            I call “dumb feminist”..kick rocks slore!

          • Shawn

            Like most feminist you can’t accept anything that doesn’t fit your victim narrative.

          • PresenceLOVE

            Very well said!

    • Laur

      First off, feminism means EQUALITY, not women > men. Second, there is no evidence to support these claims, which are mostly MADE UP. Heard of the glass ceiling? Women make LESS than men. Also, viagra is NOT birth control…
      Women have been second to men for generations, and when they try to gain equality, men like this ignorant fool complain about how their dominant position is being “taken over”. Get over yourself, and get educated.

    • claudiagold

      I’m sure it was hard for white males when slavery ended too. That doesn’t make treating half of society like a lower class right.

      • Robbie

        “I’m sure it was hard for white males when slavery ended too.”

        Why? Very few white males owned slaves. What upset more working class white men was that many felt that free Blacks would take their jobs away from them, leaving them further impoverished.

        And what of the many free Black slaveowners? They lost their investment in slaves, too.

        As Northern states abolished slavery one by one, their slaveowners were quite aware of impending abolition and sold their slaves south. So they didn’t lose their investment.

        Vermont – 1777 (14th state; joined Union 1791)
        Pennsylvania – 1780
        New York – 1799
        New Hampshire – 1783
        Massachusetts – 1783
        Connecticut – 1784
        Rhode Island – 1784
        New Jersey – 1804
        District of Columbia – 1862
        Maryland – 1864
        Missouri – 1865
        Tennessee – 1865
        West Virginia – 1865

        Delaware – 1865
        Kentucky – 1865
        Rest of slave states – 1865

        • acklebee

          Maybe they should have created a different way for their livelihood than owning people. Investing in slavery was always ethically and morally despicable. I do not feel sorry for the whites who lost their “investment” ..

    • Ken

      Usually, we don’t.

  • EthanRogati

    I’m done here. I will be very glad if I’m proven wrong on this issue. I want true equality. I just don’t think that’s what we’re going to be getting.

    • Sheep75

      It’s not what we’re going to get because as humans we’re not quite perfect. But it’s good to be aware of the current inequality that exists and to speak out against it – as Micah is doing here really well.

  • This is a little brilliant. :-)

    • Sheep75

      Just a little 😉

  • Darcy

    I love this. :)

  • Great post. But you seriously need to shave in your profile picture. Short facial hair? Stop trying to look like a sex icon.

    • Haha. Probably the best use of “Great post, but” that I’ve ever seen.

    • Chrissy

      He’s clearly using his looks to get more views. He just wants people to tell him he’s pretty. 😉

    • Rachael Lefler

      he is such a slut, flaunting his sexuality like a filthy prostitute.

    • Rachael Lefler

      I bet he just took a headshot to hide the fact that he’s fat.

    • Gabriela

      I can’t see how the way he looks is really an issue here? You look good, by the way, Micah! It is a great article! I love it! Full stop!

      • Ben

        So, let me introduce you to this wonderful new word: “Satire.”

        • Leah

          Actually, it’s more like sarcasm.

        • Gabriela

          Thank you, Ben….No need….probably when I first heard this word and understood it, you were still in kindergarten….Let me remind you…satire uses irony, derision or wit to expose or attack human vice, foolishness or stupidity. Are you implying that any of this is true about the comment in case or Micah’s pic? What was he when he chose that pic? Vicious, foolish or stupid? I respectfully disagree….
          ANY attack on someone’s looks is in bad taste and potentially offensive. Trying to disguise it into “satire” doesn’t make it all right.
          But go ahead, Ben, no harm in attempting to appear smart and educated…Some might go for it….Especially those who don’t know what you mean…

      • The way he looks is WAY MORE IMPORTANT than anything he’s trying to say. If only he was a little more modest… And yes, I was and am using satire. :)

  • Aubree Flickema

    Feminism gives women the right to be human. I love this. Thanks for writing.

    • Your comment was useless

      Thank god for feminism. Without the right to be human women would be… Metazoans?

  • You nailed all the nails here, Micah. Well done. :)

  • Nicole Resweber

    Bravo. :)

  • I LOVE this post!! Thanks for being one of those men who values women by speaking up for them. I’ve always hesitated to use the word feminism simply because I don’t want it to seem like I want to value women over men, either–and the words do have connotations in more conservative circles (rightly or wrongly). But the more I’ve thought over the issue, the more I hope that Christians can truly redeem this word and make it what it’s truly about–equality for women, not at the expense of men, but to simply make this world a better place for every person. To live as partners in a world that needs us to work together and support each other, not play our gender power games.

    • Let me encourage you (and everybody else) to use the word feminist, feminism, and all its connotations, and not be scared away because organized trolls have tried to smear poo on it and change its meaning. Feminism still means the belief that women should have legal, social, and political opportunities equal to those of men – nothing more, nothing less.

      • edtastic

        Of course there is more to it than that and it’s dishonest to state otherwise. That’s like summing up Communism as equality between the classes.

  • You had me going for a minute Micah, but very cool post. Nicely, nicely done.

  • Tim

    Micah, I’ve been a feminist since the 70s, before I became a Christian. Coming to Christ has only strengthened my commitment to feminism: http://timfall.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/biblical-womanhood-is-nothing-and-neither-is-biblical-manhood/ . Your post today also strengthened my funny bone (can bones get strengthened?). Thanks much.

    • Nicole Resweber

      Can and should – keeps you from getting humor osteoporosis. 😉

  • Wow. This is a powerful play, right here. Well done.

  • Look around

    “-isms” are rarely about equality.

    • C

      Feminism is.

      • Look around

        This depends. For example: it is about equality if you think that women (like all eligible Americans) should be permitted to run for the office of President of the United States. It isn’t if you believe the President should be a woman.

        • daisyjane0911

          Only the most red-neck of men would say that a woman shouldn’t be able to run for President. I don’t think those people are part of this discussion. It is, however, disingenuous for you to suggest that the only thing stopping a woman from being elected as President is that one “should be permitted to run”. A society that judges and ridicules a female candidate’s hair and fashion choices (ala Hillary Clinton) is a long way from any kind of equity.

          • #confuzzled

            Are you saying that it would be implausible for a male candidate’s hair or fashion choices to be ridiculed? Like, why?

          • Look Around

            You seem to have missed the point. Permitting everyone an “equal shot” is equality. Changing the views of the public so that in a popular election your candidate wins is campaigning. Believing that a President SHOULD BE a woman is sexism.

      • One of the definitions of “ism” as a suffix is, “an ideology expressing belief in the superiority of a certain class within the concept expressed by the root word, or a pattern of behavior or a social norm that benefits members of the group indicated by the root word .”

        Some people who use the term feminist are all about equality. Other people are clearly not just about equality for women.

        When speaking about such a broad category, it would probably be good to acknowledge there is variety.

        • “Other people are clearly not just about equality for women.”

          Who are these people? Where are they advocating for inequality? What else are they about if not equality for women?

          • There are feminists who are for equality for women, and there are feminists who are just advocates for women. Those are two different things which can look very similar on the surface.

          • They’re really not different…which is why they look the same. You say they’re “just advocates for women” like it’s a bad thing, and like it makes equality impossible. That’s just not true. Society is full of self-replicating mechanisms of advocacy for men. Advocating for women is a necessary part of dismantling those systems in moving toward equality.

          • Is your point all feminism is healthy, pure and about equality? I don’t think I’m saying anything radical, divisive or, anti-feminism. I’m only making the point that some feminism pushes for more than just equality.

            Would you say you support everything labelled feminism because its all for equality?

          • No, my point is that you’re using extremely imprecise language and I’m asking you to clarify.

            What is this elusive “more than just equality” that you’re talking about? Who’s advocating for what and where that is anti-equality?

          • I am very intentionally using broad language because I haven’t said anything even remotely controversial…I’ve intentionally chosen safe language…and everything I’ve written as VOTE DOWNS. So I’m operating from the assumption that actually giving examples would be like putting a big target on my back.

            Today is not a day where I’m looking to have an intense debate with people I don’t know. Perhaps a different day I would be more ready to open the floodgate.

            My only point I’m looking to make is that everything labeled “feminism” isn’t pure in motive.

          • thirtyonenine

            I suggest that you spend a few weeks of daily looking into just news media portrayal of domestic and sexual violence. Read them all. And then come back and tell me that women don’t need to be advocated for.
            Men don’t need special advocates because by and large they have the advantage in society. Sure, some women hate men. Lots of men hate women and show their hatred through their actions. And to be honest, if men feel threatened by women demanding to be respected and treated as a human being, then so be it.

          • I did not choose my word properly, and without wanting to open additional cans of worms I don’t know that I have a better word.

            Well, I guess I’ll just use the language I was hoping to avoid. Sometimes feminism means equality for women and sometimes feminism means man-haters. I don’t want to use that language, but since my previous language was far too vague, I’ll use it.

            As I keep saying, all I’m trying to say is not everything with the label “feminism” is a positive thing.

          • thirtyonenine

            Sure. Not everything labelled Christian is positive either, but despite the ugly that can be associated with the name, it is still who I am and reflects my core beliefs.

          • Look Around

            You’re right. American women are worse off socially than are men of ethnicities and creeds. Muslims, Jews, Blacks, Homosexuals, Bisexuals…. In fact, maybe Women are the “master race”.

            In Rwanda genocide occurred because a repressed group responded not by leveling their social status to equal but by elevating theirs to superior than their former repressors. Of course that is not what feminism is aimed at nor tending towards but you can see similarities in thought processes when the objective isn’t equality but advancement.

          • thirtyonenine

            I am not saying that women are the master race, or
            anything like that. Sorry if what I said could be interpreted that way.
            All of those people groups are also oppressed and certainly more than
            the white american middle-upperclass woman- by the way I dont fall into
            that category.

            Thats a simplistic read of the Rwandan genocide. There were alot more factors involved in that ongoing conflict, but I do agree with you basic point.

            I agree that no one wins when the oppressed becomes the oppressor, (which we could go back to present day Rwanda for that one) but that is nowhere near the case for the status of women, bisexuals, transgender, homosexuals, muslims, jews or people of color.

          • And my reply would be that everything labelled feminism isn’t really feminism, but I’m just not sure how this line of argument really moves the discussion forward.

          • Jeff Middel

            They can be very different. For example, to use a discussion above, if people are advocating for women having more benefits in family court, that would be advocating for women but certainly not for equality.

          • Adam McPhee

            Have you read up about Radfem and their opposition to the trans identity?

            Have you read any Andrea Dworkin?

            Have you read any Mary Daly (who refused to allow men to be in her women’s studies courses), a former feminist professor at Boston University?

            From Mary Daly’s wiki page:

            Views on men[edit]

            She argued against sexual equality,[20] believing that women ought to govern men;[21] Daly advocated a reversal of sociopolitical power between the sexes.[22]

            In an interview with What Is Enlightenment? magazine, Daly said, “I don’t think about men. I really don’t care about them. I’m concerned with women’s capacities, which have been infinitely diminished under patriarchy. Not that they’ve disappeared, but they’ve been made subliminal. I’m concerned with women enlarging our capacities, actualizing them. So that takes all my energy.”[23]

            Later in the interview, she said, “If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males”

          • How is your quote-mining of (largely rejected) radfems any different from the quote-mining you’re condemning from the feminists who protested Warren Farrell in Toronto?

          • Adam McPhee

            Would you like to show me where I quote mined? Like I said in my other post, Dworkin was in 2 of my courses. I have read her work.

            How is your asking “how it is different” actually address the aspects of feminism that do harm and villify men. Are you going to say the above examples do not?

            Do you feel feminism cannot be rebuked? Cannot be challenged? Feminism is infalliable? Is God?

          • Uh…everything following “From Mary Daly’s wiki page:”?
            And men by and large villify themselves. No assistance needed from dead, discredited radfems.

            And you’re not challenging feminism per se. You’re challenging straw(wo)men and low-hanging fruit and treating erratic outliers as universal, ideal types. It’s intellectually dishonest.

          • Jeff Middel

            And yet people on this very board have asked for examples of such feminists. In this climate it’s not intellectually dishonest since the accepted concept of feminism here is not really contemporary or informed.

        • Joel Penner

          The original post… funny. But the title is actually true. Feminism DOES hurt men.

          If ALL feminism were about equality, then it would actually benefit men. But not ALL feminism is about equality. Anyone who has taken a Logic 100-level course and can apply that knowledge would know this. As C.S. Lewis said, “…what do they teach them at these schools?”

          I agree Sean. If it were about equality, why not call themselves “Equalists”? What the “Christian Feminists” do not get is that the word “Feminist” carries some hefty philogyny of its own that equals the misogyny that women have faced.

          Two wrongs don’t make a right.

          Honestly, I’m just about done with the human race. Everyone is disgusting. They can’t build one group without tearing down a whole bunch of others and taking down innocent parties at the same time. The comments in this thread are making me hate Christians all the more because of the lack of love and common sense.

          Where is love in any of these comments or even the original post?

          • “If ALL feminism were about equality, then it would actually benefit men.”

            If power in a system is unequally distributed toward one particular side, then a move toward equality is going to be percevied as harmful by those whose privilege and hegemonic domination are being challenged. Members of the oppressor class will be faced with a reduction in their level of control and priviledge as a society moves toward equality, that much is true, but you seem to be implying that this is somehow a bad thing?

            Where is the love in that?

          • Nicole Resweber

            Feminism calls itself feminism precisely because it is about equality. “Equalism” or “humanism” does not express the same concept because women have historically been ignored in conversations about equality and humans.

            There are obviously imperfect elements and factions within various feminist movements, but the concept itself is simply that women are equally human.

            Frankly, we need some more philogyny in this world – it’s not gonna overtake misogyny anytime soon.

          • Adam McPhee

            How respected were the opinions of the male serfs, peons, proletariates, plebians, and slaves?

          • Nicole Resweber

            Class-based oppression and gender-based oppression overlap but are not identical. Intersectionality fail – try again.

          • Adam McPhee

            Intersectionality applies to all identites one belongs to. To ignore men’s issues by blaming one of their other intersectionalities is just poor logical reasoning.

            If you say a black man’s issues are because they are black, then black men and women must all have the exact same issues due to their being black. However, black women aren’t being shot for wearing hoodies and buying skittles, and men aren’t trying to straighten their hair and attain some level of “white” beauty such as their sisters feel forced to do.

            Erasing all of a man’s identites in order to say they have NO problems is just as bad as blaming their other identites for the problems they do have, as no matter how you look at it they are still men.

          • Nicole Resweber

            Jesus Christ on a cracker, where are you getting that from what I said?

            Yes, individual men and groups of men can be oppressed. Yes, obviously, individual men and groups of men can have problems. But these men are not being oppressed *because* they are men.

            To borrow a phrase from scientific researchers, “controlling for all other variables,” being of male gender is not causing people to be oppressed. So bringing up groups of men (serfs, slaves, etc.) who were historically oppressed is not actually a cogent rebuttal to the fact that women have been and continue to be an oppressed group.

          • Adam McPhee

            Nor did I say it was. However, you, like this article, are comparing apples and oranges. Women are oppressed in different ways than men are. Trying to say feminism can’t be harmful to men because of all the harms women suffer is a poor perspective and does the same thing you are trying to accuse me of (while amusingly doing it yourself).

            People need to realize that both sexes face oppression and have societal issues. Feminism needs to be more open to men call it out on certain things because, despite what feminists think, it is not infalliable.

            On that note, the MRA’s, MHRM, Masculinists, etc. need to also call each other on their BS, as they are not infalliable either. However, I have unfortunately seen this kind of behaviour from their side more than I have from feminism.

          • thirtyonenine

            Sorry I just laughed out loud. Men are not an oppressed group, unless you count the removal of some of the huge margin of privilege they have traditionally enjoyed.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            See… I have to push back on that. I believe that traditional gender roles and proscriptions DO oppress men, terribly. And I think feminism stands a much better chance of succeeding in its goals if we do not belittle the oppression men feel from sexism, too. Yes, they’re more privileged; yes, they have far more opportunities and can take things for granted that women have not been able to. But they are, absolutely, oppressed by gender roles and sexism.

          • #confuzzled

            Depends on the man, actually.

          • EM

            The only major way I’ve seen men “oppressed” as a gender is when stereotypes are assigned to the whole due to the abhorrent behavior of a few – usually in regard to sexual assault and harassment. Statements like “all men are pigs,” or, “typical of men,” for example, is oppressive. I just wish men would stop complaining about feminism, because it gives women a voice and platform to stand up for themselves – one would have to have their head in the sand to think that women don’t suffer more oppression than men do, still. We need a means of being heard, and the solidarity helps us deal with what we face. Though I do 100% agree that it’s not infallible, nothing is, really.

          • Adam McPhee

            You wish men would stop complaining about feminism because feminism gives women a voice? So you think feminism should be used to stifle men’s voices?

            When a perspective directly speaks to a group, as well as often identifies them as the source of their problems under the label of “the patriarchy”, are you that surprised when men say “hey, wait a minute…” and offer their perspective of what they are hearing?

            Both sexes should be heard, and have a voice. Neither should be exempt from this right.

            That being said, I’m glad you recognize some ways in which men can be oppressed as a group and that the actions of a few should not be generalized to the whole. The same way one wouldn’t take the actions of the West Boro Baptists and then generalize them to all Christians.

          • Pat

            “Your criticism of X is stupid,” is not the equivalent of X preventing you from speaking.

            And “the patriarchy” doesn’t just mean “men”.

          • Adam McPhee

            So if I had just switched the genders and said “I just wish women would stop complaining”…. How would you have taken that?

          • Pat

            With slightly more confusion, as it would have made less sense than what you did say. Which already didn’t make much sense.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            But having a voice is not a zero-sum game! Why do you equate women’s having a voice, to stifling that of men’s? Feminism would like BOTH.

          • Adam McPhee

            Em said: “I just wish men would stop complaining about feminism, because it gives women a voice and platform to stand up for themselves”

            But to say “I wish men would stop complaining about feminism”, is to say “I wish they would let us just freely criticize them and espouse our own perspective of society without them butting in with their male perspective” is saying men should just put up and shut up.

            For more on how feminism can stifle men’s voice, read up on Ryerson University and how they A) felt discussing men’s issues was inherently misogynistic, and B) Felt a men’s centre would inherently be anti-women’s rights: http://eyeofwoden.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/ryerson-student-union-and-the-boogey-mens-issues-groups/

          • Pat

            Given that MRAs exist to be the opposition to feminism, I daresay they are guilty of those flaws by definition.

            Feminists can be flawed. Feminism is a bit too basic.

          • Adam McPhee

            That kind of broad sweeping statement is no different than saying that Feminism exists to oppose men.

            I don’t think men wanting to see their kids, discuss their own experiences of sexual abuse (or to even have them at least recognized) is far from simply existing to oppose feminism., though many feel feminism has skewed the perspective of such issues or minimized their voice to discuss such things.

            How often have you heard feminists remark that MRA’s should just be feminists, which is as insulting to me as if you were to say all Jewish people should just be Christians (their book has extra chapters and a different ending!)

          • Pat

            If you’re an advocate for gender equality, I wouldn’t say you should be a feminist–I would say that you are one, because that’s what the word means.

            Nothing like your religious beliefs thing.

            And MRA popped up to oppose that. If they did the things you said, there’d be no opposition.

          • Adam McPhee


            the advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.


            Advocating for one gender’s rights is not a promotion of equality to me. Are there gendered rights, or are there human rights? As such, no, I do not identify as a feminist (and for that reason I also dislike the term “men’s rights advocate”).

            MRA’s did not pop up to combat equality, they popped up because of how they felt an ideology was describing and defining them. And that’s what feminism is, an ideology. It is easily comparable with religious beliefs, as I did.

            If feminism is a belief structure, and it is, then should I not be granted the right to choose my own ideology? You know, the equal choice that I allow feminists?

          • Pat

            “Women are equal to men” is not a belief structure, no.

            You are free to disagree with it, of course. You are not free to the rest of us pretending that is a valid viewpoint.

            But seriously, how is advocating that the group without the same rights have them not advocacy for equality? The other way to make everybody equal would have been to take away men’s rights–feminism is explicitly not that.

          • Adam McPhee

            That’s not what I said at all. I asked how the promotion of one’s rights over the other’s is equality? We should be striving to ensure all rights are enjoyed by all people, not just women’s rights.

            So with what you said, how is say, advocating for a “men’s centre”, such as CAFE is doing in Toronto, not about equality when there are plenty of women’s centres?

            This is why people interested in men’s issues have been discussing topics which some feminists are only now starting to discuss. For example: http://www.salon.com/2013/11/02/make_fatherhood_a_mans_choice_partner/

          • Pat

            Promoting one’s rights over another’s is not equality.
            Luckily, feminists don’t do that. Promoting the one that’s been held back would be how you get to equality. Promoting that the disadvantaged (generally minority, though obviously not always as it is not in this case) group be granted those things that the privileged (generally majority, though obviously not always as it is not in this case) group already takes for granted? That is equality.

          • Adam McPhee

            Wholly disagree. Are they women’s rights, or are they human rights? This is why the black movement fought for civil rights, not “black” rights.

            Feminism itself defined women as a sub-class, which they are not. In a class system, someone from a higher class would never be deemed beneath someone of a lower class. Emmett Till is a good example of how women were not beneath men as a class.

            In India, you would not see a Dahlit man ruling over a Brahmin woman.

          • Adam McPhee
          • Jeff Middel

            That is false. MR Activism rose to respond to contemporary feminism which is no longer advocating for equality. (lots of examples above with citations) (down vote now).

          • Anne_Hedonia

            Those things you mention – men wanting to see their kids; discussing their experiences of sexual abuse, or even have them recognized… those are real, and terrible, consequences of sexism. Those things are outrageous and unacceptable to me, BECAUSE I am a feminist (though we need a better word than that). For now, it’s the best word we have, but it is imperfect.

          • Adam McPhee

            And yet when groups like CAFE here in Toronto try to gather to discuss these things, self-identified feminists show up to protest and disrupt such talks and actually have planning meetings in advance on how they can best disrupt them (I attended one such meeting, actually).

            With that in mind, why would I want to switch to feminism? Hell, Bell Hooks wrote about reclaiming the word “feminist” in her book “Ain’t I a woman?”. So when one of feminism’s own most respected voices sees concerns with it, especially for women of colour, how welcome and accepting do you think I feel around the support of men’s issues within feminism?

            Until all women’s issues are solved, which will be never, then men’s issues will never be the primary focus of feminism, even when they are suffering a greater inequality (example: white feather campaign). Men’s issues will never be solved either, but we should at least give men space to discuss them. Many feel that feminism is not that space.

            After my Ryerson incident that is in the blog article I linked for you in another response, a feminist colleague at the shelter I work at remarked that men need to stop invading women’s spaces and create their own… Working with a group trying to acheive just that and we still keep butting heads with feminists who think the notion of men having issues and being able to discuss them is laughable and reason for hatred filled scorn.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            Absolutely true: Men face oppression and have societal issues. That is completely right. I’ve spoken to many men recently about those issues, for an article, and I feel nothing but rage and sadness for the ways in which men are limited and belittled by the way things are now.

            The cure for all of this is feminism. It is not just about a better world for women – it is about EVERYONE. It’s why I don’t like the word ‘feminist’, because the more I learn about the ways gender expectations and proscriptions truly hurt men, as well as women, the more it becomes perfectly clear that feminism, for lack of a better word, is the solution.

            It can be difficult, sometimes, for me, as a feminist, hearing the comments that pretty much add up to that old chestnut “but what about the mens” – because I’ve had 46 years of being thought of as less valuable, simply because I was born female. However, I have had to get over that knee-jerk anger, and it has been astonishingly helpful to learn the ways in which sexism destroys men’s lives, just as painfully as women’s. If feminism achieves its goals, the lives of men will be greatly improved. That will make me very happy, as I love and respect men, and want the best for them.

            So, there’s the love; I am completely not being snarky. For whatever it’s worth. 😉

          • Adam McPhee

            Except many men AND women don’t feel feminism is the answer? Should they not be allowed to choose their own ideology or what lens through which they wish to view the world?

            I went through 4 years of post-secondary education for social work, which is a very woman and feminist-heavy field. I am well educated on feminism, and I find it wanting. As such, no, I do not think feminism is the answer. However, I do not also feel it is without some validity as some in the MHRM perceive it.

            I have a highly sensitive snark detector (there’s a Seuss book in there somewhere), and no, I didn’t detect any.

            You may want to check this out on Monday, a panel discussion which I’ll be taking part in: http://theagenda.tvo.org/blog/agenda-blogs/singing-gender-blues

          • Anne_Hedonia

            Nobody, except for ignorant people, wants men to have fewer rights and privileges than women. Nobody. You could find writings by radical feminists who do, and hold them up as ‘proof’ that feminism is all about beating down men and making women the despotic rulers of all, but you’d be intellectually dishonest if you did, as you no doubt are aware.

            Feminism does NOT advocate ‘erasing men’s identities’ – not even sure what you mean by that. In fact, feminism seeks to expand the options available to men, as well as to women. A world in which men don’t feel penned in by gender expectations? Who are free to be brave and strong, AND caring and empathetic, whichever they truly feel? That’s what feminism wants.

          • Adam McPhee

            As I said, “intersectionality” refers to how our identities co-exist. So if I mention black men’s issues, I have often been told that that is because they are black, not because they are men. They are ignoring the intersecting identites of someone who is black AND a man.

            This is why I said that if it was due just to blackness, then black women would have the same problems as black men, since being men has nothing to do with their concerns according to many self-identified feminists I’ve spoken with (or those of the general population).

          • Adam McPhee

            I could and will, because there IS hatred in feminism that harms men. Feminism in and of itself does not, but it certainly encourages it and fans the flames of hatred for some.

            The radical feminists I have mentioned, such as Daly and Dworkin, taught their views at a post-secondary level, and their views are still included. One of the text books in which Dworkin was included mentioned her as one of the most famous feminists and then showed a court statement she gave when she was called upon as an EXPERT witness, so she was also asked to help guide aspects of the american legal system.

            You say feminism has discredited them, but I still seeing them getting plenty of credit for their man-hating views, which to try and argue against their inherent sexism would be foolish.

          • #confuzzled

            What’s the point of making a distinction? Why not just campaign against arbitrary discrimination of all sorts? Is that difficult, or something?

          • #confuzzled

            The movement would probably have infinitely more appeal if it was “egalitarianism”, and the ideology should be exactly the same, if you’re right.

            My suspicion is that a lot of “feminists” don’t use “egalitarian” to describe themselves because they feel like others could easily establish them as NOT egalitarian.

            That’s because a lot of people who say they’re feminists are actually just dicks.

          • Tami Schroeder

            Did you seriously just say “Honestly, I’m just about done with the human race. Everyone is disgusting.” and then ask where the love in other people’s posts is?

            You seem to have something in your eye. It’s really big. Looks wooden.

          • Jeff Middel

            I guess everyone on here could say that. Is he wrong? Is there really a lot of love and understanding in these comments? Or in the down-voting?

          • Anne_Hedonia

            Feminism DOES actually, truly benefit men. For example:

            • Women earning equal pay means that, in families headed by a wage-earning woman and a wage-earning man, there’s more money in the household.

            • Feminism includes a rejection of the traditional male gender roles and norms, just as those for women. The proscription against men expressing emotions other than anger? Being able to admit fear or sadness, and make connections that comfort and recharge? Those things being okay for men are a vital part of feminism.

            • I’ve know many men who, in private, have admitted to me that they do not like being expected to be constantly on the prowl for sexual conquests – that they don’t feel that way, but feel they have to pretend to be perma-horny and sexually aggressive. Feminism advocates against that expectation.

            • Feminists – or, the vast majority (nobody I know likes Daly and Dworkin, but every group has its outliers) believe strongly that men love their children just as much as women do; want and need to be nurturing, emotionally bonded parents; and that family courts have frequently been terribly unfair to men, by presupposing that they don’t care as much about the kids, or aren’t emotionally equipped to be equally nurturing and loving as women. Feminists know this to be utter BS, and would eagerly welcome a more just system in which fathers and male caregivers are recognized, appreciated, and treated fairly.

            • Any man who loves and cares about a woman or a girl – his daughter, his sister, his wife, his mother, whatever – has feminism to thank for the fact that they can vote, drive, hold a job, get an education, keep their wages, inherit and pass on property, decide whether they want to have kids or not, etc. If your daughter, hypothetically, marries an abusive man, and he beats and rapes her, she can divorce him for it, thanks to feminism.

            I’m currently in the middle of writing an article for a women’s site that talks about the challenges MEN face. It has been fascinating and educational; some of them I’d known about, but a lot surprised me. Most of the issues men have talked to me about would be relieved or eradicated by true feminism: i.e., equality, plain and simple.

        • When speaking about a definition, why not consult, I dunno, a dictionary?

          1. The doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

          With what part of this do you disagree?

          Some people who use the term Christian are clearly nutjobs. That does not invalidate (nor validate, for that matter) that belief system.

          • Umm I quoted a dictionary in my post. I just wasn’t giving the dictionary definition of “feminism.” I’m not sure I said anything divisive enough that it would warrant needing snark to get my attention.

            I don’t disagree that that is the dictionary definition of feminism and many/most people using the term fit nicely into that definition. My only point is that not everyone and everything with the label “feminism” is purely about equality. In the 10 or so posts I’ve made on this blog, I don’t think I’ve once said feminism is invalid.

            In the same way, just because I support Christianity that does not mean everything done which holds the label “Christian” actually relates to Christ’s teachings and example.

  • sillypoet

    There are actually two type of feminism- the man-haters and the equality-seekers. Equal rights for equal work- just fine and dandy, but man-haters? They basically do what was done to women in the past, and feel ‘it’s their time now’ and suppress men- and other women who don’t think like they do.
    Sad, really.

    • I’ve been fortunate. The “equality-seekers” I’ve met have outnumbered the “man-haters” 1000:1

      • Joel Penner

        Come to Canada. Lots more militant man haters up here, particularly in the universities. I don’t blame them, but it doesn’t make reverse discrimination any less wrong or existent.

        • Can you give an example of the “reverse discrimination” you’re referring to?

          • Joel Penner

            Already did. Come to Canada, go to a university like SFU and listen in on conversations. There is some very real hate and discrimination. Also occurs in the workplace up here, but it’s much more under the radar… and who would believe a man or not be laughed at for it?

            Accepting that such two-way discrimination occurs is not an endorsement to stop fighting for equality. Fighting for womens’ rights is necessary and must go on.

          • What is the content of these conversations you’re referring to that is so hateful and discriminatory?

          • Adam McPhee

            Canadian feminists in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0

            And here’s our biggest charmer attacking both Christianity and people trying to discuss issues men face (by telling them to shut the fuck up cause she’s got it covered): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVuK44kWgxk

          • Jeff Middel

            I’m fascinated that people on here are asking for evidence of radical feminism and misandry, but when evidence is produced (via a youtube clip), it’s voted down. So, not really looking for evidence contrary to your own preconceived notions. (down vote this post now)

          • Anne_Hedonia

            While I strongly disagree with ANYONE who goes around hating on and/or bashing men in the name of feminism (which they emphatically do NOT represent):

            As a woman, I understand their anger. I wish it weren’t there, but I do understand it. Being belittled, devalued, mocked, commodified and discounted tends to make a person very, very angry. I have felt very angry at being treated poorly because I’m female, and have had to stifle and swallow it. Luckily, I have come to terms with it and don’t think it is useful or important anymore. Not every woman has reached that point – and some, due to personal experience, will never be able to. Unfortunately, because we still have such a long way to go before we see gender equality, a lot of women are very angry, and understandably so.

            Can you not see where the anger comes from? While stipulating that it is very wrong-headed and counterproductive.

          • Jeff Middel

            Of course. Where do you think men’s rights activism comes from? The same happens to men. However, it’s more insidious because belittling men is more culturally acceptable and it’s existence is denied.
            Consider that in the popular media it is generally funny when a man gets hit, kicked or beat up by a woman (reference a recent Dannon Oikos yogurt ad during the 2012 Superbowl). Would the same be acceptable if the roles were reversed?

          • ElishaC

            ‘belittling men is more culturally acceptable’

            You have officially jumped the shark.

          • edtastic

            ” Being belittled, devalued, mocked, commodified and discounted tends to make a person very, very angry.”

            Feminists do this to men all the time. It creates MRA’s.

            Women think their pain is special because they ignore the pain in men. That’s not a good way to do the equality thing but it’s a fine way to feed one’s narcissistic impulses. Men don’t have 4 times the suicide rate for nothing.

          • #confuzzled

            I don’t understand it at all.
            If any degree of suffering convinces someone to hate an entire demographic, they’re a bit of a loony.

          • Jeff Middel

            Further, look at the hiring rate comparisons of women and men as university instructors today. Why is there such disparity? Any discrimination based on race, gender/sex, religion, etc. is still discrimination. That you are unaware of this discrimination is unfortunate, but you can find a lot of information (both anecdotal and statistical) all over the internet. Look at university lists of new profs. in the arts if you’re really interested.

          • Porst

            What exactly is “reverse” about that? Straight white men are entitled to discrimination, and anything else gets a different category? Way to show your true colors, or as the case may be, lack thereof.

          • Jenn Baerg

            As an SFU grad of two degrees (spent 10 years on the campus in both the Chemistry and English departments) I find that statement appalling and quite frankly a lie. Your lack of truth indicates to me that you have a serious issue with the idea of equality and as such see any action towards it as “hating men.” While as a woman now in the field of theology I can say looking back at my time at SFU that while it was a place where I was more free to speak in class, I still encountered sexual harassment from TA’s and found the same issues in all higher education that I had to work twice as hard to ensure I was treated fairly.

          • edtastic

            “I still encountered sexual harassment from TA’s”

            Do you realize sexual harassment isn’t men hating women? This is men showing sexual interest in a women and although it’s annoying and even threatening you should stop using it as basis for discrimination claims because it’s not. Not every man is a gentlemen and women are also known to sexually harass men who are far less likely to make a fuss about it.

          • Jeff Middel

            I’ve commented above alluding to the same, but the application of affirmative action in such universities as York U. when women outnumber men in Canadian universities today is a good example of discrimination. The statement that “women can’t be sexist” is another one.

          • Jenn Baerg

            You are aware that there is no Affirmative Action policy in Canadian universities? We do have Employment Equity which ensure that no person is discriminated against for their sex, sexuality or ability when it comes to employment. As for your blanket statement of discrimination against men in universities does not actually address one that the split is 60/40 at its highest – McGill in 2003 and that the physical science, computer science and engineering fields are still disproportionately male dominated. Even if the statistics for enrolment are in women’s favour, a university degree is no guarantee of equal pay or a harassment free work environment.

          • edtastic

            Men dominating STEM does not make up for a 60:40 gender ratio overall.

            “Even if the statistics for enrolment are in women’s favour, a university degree is no guarantee of equal pay or a harassment free work environment.”

            There is no guarantee for these men that they will get whatever they want when they graduate. What you have is a serious entitlement issue as if men can pave the roads with gold just for your precious lady feet.

        • “Reverse discrimination” has to be one of the most insipid terms ever coined. Discrimination is discrimination, no mater who practices it. “Reverse discrimination” actually implies that one form of discrimination is more correct than the other.

          • Joel Penner

            Agreed. I’ve encountered anti-Canadian racism as well as anti-American racism. If you can name a people group or skin color, I’ve heard it or seen it. They’re all disgusting.

      • edtastic

        I doubt you could tell the difference because you haven’t learned to catch the man hating in you own writing.

    • Quite frankly the “man haters” are almost all a fabrication of the “Men’s rights” bozos.

      • sillypoet

        the man-haters aren’t fabricated. There are a lot of women in my city that feel that men are beneath them and need to be under tight control. and even belittle the women who want to be wives and mothers because ‘ it is beneath’ them. Of course these are the same women that complain after they browbeat ‘their men’ into submission when the men won’t stand up for themselves! *rolls eyes*

        • Porst

          I think you’ll find those are the majority in the grand scheme. That, or you’re meeting the wrong people.

        • Well you and your 5 friends can go into the “not most” category.

          Women bitching about men doesn’t make said women men haters. People bitch incessantly about things they don’t hate.

        • thirtyonenine

          I actually work for a feminist organisation and I have not encountered one feminist so far that hates men or thinks they should be supressed. Their spouses (yes most are married) are men who are not by any means “browbeaten” into submission. Seems like the minority have been the only feminists you’ve encountered.

          • sillypoet

            I never said that they were the majority- just that they exist. Though I have to admit there are a lot of them in my city.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            So what? Name me one group that doesn’t have statistical outliers.

          • edtastic

            You assume you could spot them but I doubt you can. Men have blind spots and so do women.

        • Jeff Middel

          I’m interested that the anecdotal evidence of “man-haters” on here is dismissed while the evidence of discrimination against women on here meets with unqualified empathy and sympathy. Response to non-statistical posts on both side of the fence is very telling here. Disappointing that there is less honesty that I would hope for and expect.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            It’s actually dishonest to derail a conversation about feminism by pointing to outlier radicals who everyone here has patiently explained do NOT represent feminism.

          • Jeff Middel

            I wasn’t. I was showing that feminism today is not what is represented in the blog. I’ve said that from the start. What most people here are advocating as feminism are feminisms from decades ago. Most active feminists today (and activist feminists) do not espouse what most on here think of as feminism.

          • ElishaC

            You need to stop telling women what feminism is.

          • #confuzzled

            Why couldn’t a man know? Are men immune to oppression or something?

          • Jeff Middel

            As if gender makes one innately aware of a critical theory or social movement? That would be sexist (if women could be sexist, right?).

      • Adam McPhee

        As I posted in response to someone else:

        Have you read up about Radfem and their opposition to the trans identity?

        Have you read any Andrea Dworkin?

        Have you read any Mary Daly (who refused to allow men to be in her women’s studies courses), a former feminist professor at Boston University?

        From Mary Daly’s wiki page:

        “Views on men

        She argued against sexual equality, believing that women ought to govern men;Daly advocated a reversal of sociopolitical power between the sexes.

        In an interview with What Is Enlightenment? magazine, Daly said, “I don’t think about men. I really don’t care about them. I’m concerned with women’s capacities, which have been infinitely diminished under patriarchy. Not that they’ve disappeared, but they’ve been made subliminal. I’m concerned with women enlarging our capacities, actualizing them. So that takes all my energy.”

        Later in the interview, she said, “If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males”

        • Trotting out two dead radfem’s whose ideas have been almost univerally rejected by feminists doesn’t really move the conversation forward.

          • Adam McPhee

            Radfem had a conference here in Toronto just this summer, and excluded any trans identified people from attending. Far from dead.

            Andrea Dworkin was in at least 2 of my textbooks at University, so her ideas are far from dead.

            Mary Daly died 3 years ago and taught her hatred at an academic level. Not exactly old news either.

            By your rationale, bringing up old views and perspectives don’t help, so from now on, feminists aren’t allowed to bring up any oppression from more than what, 50-100 years ago? The past never influences the future. The past couldn’t have influenced the current notions of feminism…

          • And feminists were there, protesting the transphobic rhetoric coming from Rise Up, both before and during, but something tells me this isn’t really about transgender rights as much as it is about discrediting feminism.

            Oh, and Dworkin and Daly were in my textbooks as well, as cautionary tales.

          • Adam McPhee

            They weren’t cautionary in my books.

            Rise Up was protested by many LGBT activists. I never heard or read that any one protesting identified as feminist themselves (feel free to correct me on this if you have any sources, and I’m thinking those who actually protested).

            I do know some from the men’s side of thing protested them here and in the U.K.

          • intersectional feminists work to counter all oppressions and specifically target transphobia, racism/white supremacy, ableism, and heterosexism as well as patriarchy.

          • Adam McPhee

            I asked for specific feminists who protested the radfem (feminist-identified itself) event in Toronto? As I said, I only read about LGBT activists, not anyone who identified as feminist. Telling me what “intersectional feminists” work on was just an answer to a question that was not asked. Also, that is one branch of many of feminism. Can you not also name me one that does harm to men?

            Here is a post I did recently on a picture I saw that vilifies men for women’s unsafe sexual practices instead of holding equally accountable. It is not feminist specific, but I would say I can see feminism’s touch upon it: http://eyeofwoden.wordpress.com/2013/11/06/when-worlds-collide/

            Would you not agree that such a perspective harms and vilifies men? It harms women too, but the poster was obviously attempting to be in support of women at the expense of men.

          • radfems do not speak for me or for feminism-at-large. i speak for myself, and sometimes i even speak on topics not specifically outlined for me by men.

            my feminism honors the image of God in all people. equality is not a zero sum game.

          • Anne_Hedonia

            So, because your textbooks in University contained the writings of two people who are now discredited by feminism, all feminists subscribe to their fringe-lunatic beliefs? How does that follow?

          • Adam McPhee

            Many feminists still give them credit, and they are being taught to post-secondary students. How does that equate to them being discredited and of little concern?

            I never said all feminists do, but are you going to deny that some do? Feminism has many faces, and some of them promote hatred.

          • Adam McPhee

            Also less about discrediting, as I would never entirely discredit feminism. However, I am challenging it, especially since the mentality of this article and the comments beneath are that it can do no wrong.

          • Pat

            I challenge feminists all the time.
            That’s not the same thing as challenging the concept of feminism.

          • edtastic

            The concept of gender equality is solid but feminism’s interpretation of what that means and how it gets done should be criticized. Feminism is the work of feminists not some edict passed down by god.

        • Anne_Hedonia

          Rush Limbaugh said that women who take birth control are sluts and whores. Therefore, ALL men think women who take birth control are sluts and whores. Or do you think it’s unfair of me to single out one radical extremist in your group, and repeatedly hold him up as “proof” that all men are ignorant d-bags??

          • Jeff Middel

            I think the issue is that on this specific forum a lot of people seem to be denying that extremist views and contemporary “new” feminist views exist.
            The parallel would be for someone to say that they’ve never heard such things as your quote.

          • Adam McPhee

            What group would that be? Men? That’s the only group I share with Rush Limbaugh. He’s a republican, I’m a socialist. He’s a radio personality, I’m a social worker. He’s fat, I’m thin…
            Sorry, trying hard to figure out what identity/group I share with him. Are “men” a movement and/or ideology now?

      • #confuzzled

        You don’t have a Tumblr, do you.

        • As a matter of fact I do…

          • #confuzzled

            Maybe you’re following the wrong blogs or something, but I see manhating stuff all the time.

          • Given the utter disregard for the meaning of the word, that’s not much of a data point.

    • Lauren

      There are three. Don’t forget that REALLY HUGE segment of women that expects a man to pay for the first date, doors held open for them, special treatment for being a woman, equal pay despite inequal experience, and then sit there and rage that industries with 90% male audiences aren’t catering to their needs equally. It’d be great if equality seekers were the majority, but they’re really not.

      • Anne_Hedonia

        You’re wrong. Sorry.

    • Anne_Hedonia

      Solution: Ignore the outliers. Don’t pay attention to the fringers who go around saying they hate men. Who cares if they do? They don’t speak for feminism.

  • A. Ellsworth

    I agree that women are most definitely not taking over the world because of feminism, and that, as a woman, I sometimes find myself still being pushed into a rigid box of gender roles.


    Men’s rights have actually been an issue and is becoming a bigger one as our society emphasizes women’s rights. Here are some examples:

    Custody battles usually favor the mother simply because she is a woman.

    Unwed fathers are much less likely to be approved to adopt a child than an unwed mother.

    EthanRogoti actually brought up another issue: an education system that
    is dominated by female teachers and curriculum that favors female ways
    of learning.

    Men who are victims of domestic violence by a woman are much less likely to report the abuse, mostly because males are less likely to be believed.

    So I actually find this satire a little unfair and somewhat ignorant.

    • Tim

      I don’t know much about your other points, A.E., but I can say that in my 18 1/2 years in the courts I have not seen this one to be true: “Custody battles usually favor the mother simply because she is a woman.” There are a number of reasons a child is placed with one parent or the other, and I’ve ordered it both ways. The parent’s sex is not one of those reasons though. (I know a lot of people will insist it is anyway, but to those people I say they don’t know what they’re talking about because they weren’t in my courtroom nor in my head when I made those orders.)


      • Adam McPhee

        Feminisms influence on custody rights, i.e. tender years doctrine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tender_years_doctrine

        Canadian stats on who gets sole custody in divorce proceedings (79.3% mothers, 6.6% fathers): http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/fl-lf/famil/stat2000/p4.html

        Yeah, no inequality there.

        • Tim

          Okey dokey, my friend. I’ll trust Wikipedia over my decades of training and experience any day!

          • Adam McPhee

            Nice self-centred approach instead of looking at information. What’s your egotistical excuse for the Canadian government statistics?

            Sorry, here’s an academic paper on the tender years doctrine since you’re too high brow for an easy wiki answer. I didn’t realize my internet posts were being peer-reviewed:


          • Tim

            Sorry Adam, I was just talking about how things go personally, not trying to answer for the entire system.

          • Adam McPhee

            Understandable, but our individual world’s are incredibly small compared to greater society. Take my work in Social Work. If I focused on just my work with people living with HIV or my work in the shelter system, both of which disproportionately affect men, then you would understand why I speak to men`s issues more than I do women (without going into my own personal life experience as a male).

            However, in that same vein, I acknowledge that women also have issues which disproportionately affect them. Critiquing feminism, as those interested in men`s issues often do, is not always a complete discredit of the ideology, it is a different perspective that says no, I don`t agree with how you`re framing it.

            It does not discredit one to support the other. However, if we keep asking men to be more in touch with their emotions, and then shut them down when they speak up about how they feel, even if it`s contradictory to feminism`s staunchly held beliefs, then we will never achieve the equality that both sides are supposedly striving for.

    • Shanna

      Feminism didn’t cause these problems–they have been in place for centuries and feminism has made a positive difference in these areas, As we break down gender stereotypes about women–that they are weak and helpless and not capable of being a real threat; that caring for children is “woman’s work” only; that teaching is a “woman’s job” only–this HELPS men who want to teach and parent and get taken seriously in domestic violence situations.

      • A. Ellsworth

        It was not my intention to blame feminism for the men’s rights issues. I can see how it came off that way. I believe that we need to fight for the rights of both men and women, because the discrimination goes both ways. Equality is what I’m after here, not favoring one over the other.

      • theblackcommenter

        Although ironically the rise of feminism has led to fewer men in teaching than before.

        • thirtyonenine

          Not sure I see where you draw the direct correlation there: Feminism = Less male teachers?

    • Tami Schroeder

      “Custody battles usually favor the mother simply because she is a woman.

      Unwed fathers are much less likely to be approved to adopt a child than an unwed mother.”

      Did you ever stop to ask yourself why these might be the case? Did it never occur to you that it just might be because patriarchy (traditional gender roles) says that childcare is women’s work?

      It just boggles my mind that most of the same people who believe that women are more nurturing than men and that a woman’s place is in the home, caring for children, then get upset when more mothers than fathers are awarded custody of children. During marriage, mothers take on the lioness’s share of childcare. (This is still the case in our society even when both parents work full time.) And yet people call it anti-male discrimination when the exact same arrangement that was carried on during the marriage (mother doing most childcare, father contributing money) is continued post-divorce. This is what traditionalists WANT for crying out loud. Until it means a father doesn’t get primary custody and then all of a sudden it’s unfair.

      Similarly, teaching is one of the only careers women have historically been “allowed” to do. But all of a sudden it’s supposed to feminism’s fault that there are more women teaching than men?

      • A. Ellsworth

        I do not deny that patriarchy is the reason that women win more custody battles or unwed mothers can adopt children more easily. But in some cases the father may be more nurturing than the mother, and in those cases the odds are stacked against him simply because of his gender.
        Also, I was not attempting to blame feminism for men’s rights issues. I realize that it probably came off that way. But just because women have dominated teaching in the past does not mean that it needs to continue simply because it used to be one of their only outlets for a career.

        • Anne_Hedonia

          Patriarchy is the reason men win more highly-paid positions and positions of great political influence. But in some cases, the woman may be more intelligent and capable than the man, and in those cases the odds are stacked against her simply because of her gender.

          • A. Ellsworth

            I don’t disagree with you. I’m just saying it goes both ways. I never once tried to say that women have it all.

      • Christian Farmer

        Tami, studies show that, except in cases of sexual coercion, abuse is perpetrated by both men and women at comparable rates, and yet, all I see are marches for “violence against women”. And many women I talk to don’t think it’s possible for women to be abusive. How many anti-abuse articles blame men, and never mention when a woman is at fault? There is a definite gender bias in this case, and it is not pro male.

        • Tami Schroeder

          I don’t think that’s actually accurate. Can you please cite your sources? All the studies I can find cite higher rates of male on female violence than female on male.

          Here’s one that I found in a quick google search:


          • Christian Farmer
          • A. Ellsworth

            Those are based on who reports crimes. Men report crimes committed to them by women much much less.

          • Jeff Middel

            There was a 2001 study (I believe that was the year) comparing the reporting of domestic violence in Canada. Both sat very close to 25% (give or take about 1%). The parity of them, especially accounting for the likely unreporting by male victims was striking.

        • Erin

          There really is no need to complain about women speaking out against violence, in order to bring support to male victims, is there? Please support awareness of male victims, but try to do so without the comparison. Both deserve support. The more that men recognize the problem of abuse against men and start marches themselves for “violence against men,” the more public awareness there will be on the issue. If you feel men are oppressed, do something, like women are for their cause.

          • Pat

            I do hate seeing “violence against women” used as code for domestic violence. While there may be considerable overlap, they’re not the same thing and violence against women isn’t always bad (violence against anyone is typically bad, of course).
            Why did the name of the thing we’re actually talking about fall out of use?

          • Christian Farmer

            So speaking about the inequality here isn’t allowed? If there’s a march against abuse, why not admit that abuse is committed equally by both genders?

          • Christian Farmer

            The problem is, I bring it up, and I’m immediately told that it’s false, just like Tami did up above. I tell a girl that the number one thing I want in a spouse is that she not be abusive, and the girl responds with “women are only abusive if men made them that way”. I’ve run into some feminists that agree men should be included in the equality movement, but for the most part, whenever the subject of abuse perpetrated by females comes up, I either get shouted down, derided, or dismissed. By women. In any forum.

      • theblackcommenter

        So ‘patriarchy’ = magic. Patriarchy is the reason why men don’t report domestic abuse against them. It is also the reason why women initiate divorce proceedings more often. And it is the reason that women get custody more frequently (even at time in cases where the women is an abuser).

        Is there anything it can’t do?

        • Tami Schroeder

          Patriarchal gender roles are, in fact, the reason men don’t report abuse against them, yes. The “ideal” that men are big and strong and in charge of women causes men to feel ashamed to admit that they’re being abused by women.

          I wouldn’t say the patriarchy is the reason women initiate divorce proceedings more often, no. But I don’t see that statistic as necessarily a bad thing, either.

          • theblackcommenter

            Tami I don’t know you, but I’m guessing that you have little to no idea what it is like to be a man. Patriarchy has zero to do with men not reporting abuse. Men don’t report abuse very often because they will be arrested and charged as being abusive. There are virtually zero resources for men who are abused. And most people laugh at men being abused; not just in silly corners on the internet, but on network television. Why? Because men are expendable and are reminded daily of that fact. What men want or need doesn’t matter. If momma ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy, dontcha know? And if daddy ain’t happy, well screw him, its probably his fault anyway.

            You don’t think about the expendability of men because you are not expendable. Violence against women is noted because violence against women is comparatively rare. Violence against men no one talks about. Men are raped more frequently than women. No? What about prison? Well that’s just a punch line for a tv sitcom and they shouldn’t be in jail anyway.

          • Erin

            Violence against women is NOT rare on a global scale.

            But I do appreciate your comment on why men don’t report abuse, I think this issue needs to enter more public discussion. We need to cultivate an attitude as a society where it’s OK for men to report it, talk about it, without shame or fear.

          • Pat

            No, if you report a crime against you, you are not suddenly arrested for that crime. No matter how male.

            But men who report abuse not being taken seriously or being the butt of jokes would be patriarchal. Because women can’t hurt men, that’s silly!
            See the comment above about how a man being abused won’t be taken seriously, using a woman slapping her husband as an example–a comment about how serious female-on-male abuse is still couldn’t conceive of serious abuse. Not surprising from an openly anti-feminist position, I suppose, but the contradiction caught my eye.

          • Jeff Middel

            A recent study found when a man reported abuse by his female partner, he had a 50% chance of being arrested and not her.

        • Pat

          Those are all things that are pretty obviously linked to patriarchal gender roles.
          Like, really obviously.

      • #confuzzled

        That actually sounds more like a stupid assumption that happens to benefit women.

        Labeling stupid assumptions based on gender part of the patriarchy is a bit strange, as women are perfectly capable of making them.

    • Porst

      Maybe when you spend nearly a year of your life carrying a child to term, going through massive bodily changes, having a tiny human tear out of your crotch, and spend several more months healing, nursing, and trying to get your body back to normal, you can whine about what dads get. I’m not even a woman and I know this stuff. How hard is it to empathize?

      • theblackcommenter

        What does that have to do with anything?

    • Anne_Hedonia

      Feminism addresses these specific issues, and many more challenges that men face as a result of patriarchal gender roles and proscriptions. Feminism is about making the world better for men and women BOTH.

      • A. Ellsworth

        I would rather use the word “egalitarian” rather than “feminist.” The root word, feminine, implies a favoring of women. Unfortunately that’s how it turns out many times.

  • Brett FISH Anderson

    i’m with Rachel Held Evans on this one – a little brilliant – kind of like that latest invention that just came out that was so simple and obvious and why didn’t i think of that… kind of reminds me of this great Pearls before Swine cartoon that i used in this Forgiveness post [http://brettfish.wordpress.com/2013/09/25/back-to-your-future-part-forgive] in terms of illustrating the extent of the effect something is having…

    keep on
    love brett fish

  • I am more than a little in love with you right now. You’re not single are you????? 😉 Will now proceed to share this incessantly until friends start yelling at me.

    • I am very happily married. But thank you for your kind words.

      • well dam. At least now I know and I won’t pine away. Do you have any single friends?

        Hey, what can I say. If you don’t ask, you don’t get. That’s one of my life mottos. 😉

        But seriously, this truly was inspired. And it speaks so so so much more loudly coming from a man. Thank you for writing it and having the courage to put out here in a public forum. Gives me hope. Hope for our world, our society, our country, my own life. Hope.

    • Kristine, I don’t know who you are, but chick…that just won my heart. Way to be brave! =) Love it.

      • OMG, GRACE! I read your blog I think!! that made my day. Some random interwebs person *I* read commented on my comment. happy girl.

      • also, being 35 and still 100% single, never married, clearly whatever I’ve been doing hasn’t worked. Time to try something new. 😉

        • A. Ellsworth

          Clearly, whatever you’ve done has not gotten you in to a troublesome marriage. So that’s a plus!

          • Yes, there IS that. Definitely need to add that to my list of things that *have* worked. 😉

    • A. Ellsworth

      I half expected you to cat-call him. :)

      • that’s not what I was doing??? DANG!!! 😉

        Side note, how does one cat-call online??? Hmmmm. Might have to figure that out, maybe that’ll help my single status.

  • Samantha Jo Berry

    This is, without a doubt, one of the greatest things I have ever read.

  • Ha Ha Ha.

    Whomever said sarcasm was the lowest form of humour was being sarcastic. Print this article out on 65 lb bond paper and whack your nearest “Men’s Rights” douchebag with it.

    • This is one of the best endorsements for my writing I’ve ever had!

      • Thanatos

        The fact that you would consider advocacy against equality as an endorsement is precisely what invalidates your writing. If you were truly supporting an egalitarian goal, wouldn’t “Men’s Rights” be every bit as valuable as Feminism? The system and our society have imbalances throughout and tilt on both sides. I’m all for supporting equal rights, but the moment you dismiss the other side of the coin, you’re no better than those you advocate against.

        • Ben

          Feminism does not mean ‘women are better than men’, it means that all genders should be equal. So a true feminist would believe in men and women’s rights. But most of the people who ‘advocate’ for men’s rights are often misinformed about the problems women are still facing. Being feminist means wanting equality. Saying ‘men’s rights’ shows you probably don’t understand the vast inequality for women still at play.

          • Thanatos

            How does acknowledging the inequities in the system show that I don’t understand feminism? I’m a man that works in the legal system. I see men getting shafted in family law on a regular basis. It’s not as bad as it used to be, but to claim that men have every advantage and that women are the only victims of societal prejudice shows little more than ignorance. I don’t believe I’ve, at any point in my comments, dismissed the struggles for equal rights for women.

          • Miranda

            “I don’t believe I’ve, at any point in my comments, dismissed the struggles for equal rights for women.” –> “I see men getting shafted in family law on a regular basis.” Dismissal.

          • Thanatos

            How is that a dismissal of the struggles women face? I’m merely pointing out one area in which men are treated unfairly based on their gender, much in the same way as women are elsewhere. It’s not a dismissal of either side but an affirmation that there are issues to be addressed for both genders.

          • drst

            “I’m merely pointing out one area in which men are treated unfairly based on their gender,”

            No. Women are treated unfairly by family courts because of their gender. The assumption is that women must and should be primary caregivers for their children barring some significant obstacle, which is why men are often not granted the custody and visitation that would be equitable while the mother is given more responsibilities/time. In other words, no, this is not a situation where only men suffer unfairly due to their gender. It is a situation where both* genders suffer. It just happens to be the rare one where men are given less.

            That you see nothing wrong with women being treated unfairly in this situation just speaks to the narrowminded and silly viewpoint of the so-called “men’s rights” movement.

            * – I use “both” because in the eyes of most courts there are only two genders, but this is not an accurate representation of humans.

          • Thanatos

            Begging your pardon, but nobody has custody forced upon them in the court system. In instances where neither parents accepts custody the child is placed in some manner of conservatorship. If one parent declines and the other accepts, it generally goes to the parent accepting custody. There are extenuating circumstances in which the courts may find a parent unfit, however this argument is in regards to a battle for custody. To argue that custody is forced upon anybody only shows ignorance on your part and a desperate stretch to discredit my argument.

          • Dee Petersen

            When you consider the subject of child support and the number of women raising their children because the father DIDN’T want to take any responsibility, yes men do get the shaft in some areas of law…But overall, women have been stuck with the enormous financial, emotional, and physical responsibilities of raising children. Sure, there are cases where the mother is unfit, or otherwise doesn’t have custody and may not pay her share…Or a man may want more responsibility and doesn’t get it, but the numbers are greatly smaller than women raising children on their own. History has been in flux. There was a time when it was disgraceful for a women to ask for a divorce, and she was deemed unfit to be a mother. Custody of children was often granted to the father, because they handled the money, it was nearly impossible for women to fight it in court. Then there was a time when it was common for fathers to run off, leaving the responsibility to the mother. I feel things are changing a bit in recent times. I see more fathers wanting to be involved and know the full scope of what it takes to raise a child. Props to them…but there are still too many men who do not care about those kids nearly as much as they could, or should. If law is the only area you feel men have been abused…Not that it doesn’t matter, but it’s one thing compared to a very long list of ways that women are abused in several areas.

          • Dee Petersen

            I honestly believe that the subject of law is an attorney issue. Business is what takes advantage of men, not feminism.

          • #confuzzled

            That doesn’t sound like women have been stuck with anything; it sounds like some women and some men have been stuck with those overwhelming responsibilities.

            For people who hate sexism you guys sure like overgeneralizing the world based on gender stereotypes.

          • Dee Petersen

            I have lived it, it’s no stereotype. It’s the reality of the situation. The odds are still that mothers will take care of children on their own. Most women I know are doing it…VERY few have men who want responsibility. I also know a few women who don’t want it…FAR less than the men who don’t though. It is a rising number…maybe due to that fact that women are sick of being jerked around, told what they can and can’t do, can and can’t wear. Can and can’t do with their bodies.

          • Dee Petersen

            And this is a world wide thing, not just an American issue. Women and children around the world are being seriously abused by grown men. Look at the rape statistics in countries around the world and you will hopefully see that men are the majority of the time, perpetrators of crimes against women, not the other way around!!

          • #confuzzled

            The fact that you’ve experienced something doesn’t change the fact that some, but not all, men and some, but not all, women have experienced it.

            The people you know don’t necessarily represent everyone, and just because something strongly correlates with gender doesn’t mean you can assume perspectives on the issue are rooted in gender.

          • Thanatos

            Thank you for providing a thoughtful response, it’s a refreshing change of pace. Family Law is an inherently difficult topic due to the involvement of very personal situations and emotions. I would applaud anyone, man or woman, who steps up to care for a child on their own. It’s certainly not an easy task, though it’s one I would gladly take on in a heartbeat. The primary issue I have here is the denial of parental rights. Of course there aspects of this situation that can’t be changed, as I don’t see men giving birth any time soon. However people taking on the responsibility of child rearing (while unarguably difficult) isn’t the same as having a right denied. You are right that I put a lot of focus in the legal field as I feel this is where change can more directly be applied. I’m of the belief that one cannot effectively legislate morality, and that social change take time and awareness rather than force. As such I put my efforts where I feel they are most useful, and as demonstrated on this board, there is already a very loud voice advocating the awareness desired by feminism. I’m more than happy to add my voice to yours, but I also choose to put myself to use where I can be more than just a voice.

          • edtastic

            Women’s groups are the ones currently fighting the push for default shared custody laws so your comment makes no sense. The familiar tactic of simply declaring women a great victim doesn’t jive with the facts and has been stated custody is not something either gender is forced to take and it’s often something that both fight over.

          • Damiana Swan


            What you are doing is known as “derailing”.

          • edtastic

            The rails must be heading the wrong way because you can’t have a conversation on equality without seriously considering the perspectives of both genders involved. Making the conversation on equality a half century long diatribe of women telling men what they want from them sounds like the paternalistic patriarchy we just abandoned.

          • KrisDStar

            Really? Men get to keep the vast majority of their income in a divorce. They also have the ability to rebuild their assets much faster. They also don’t pay the actual dollar amount equal to what it costs to raise a child, they pay a percentage based on a sliding scale, based on income.

            Women get the brunt of the responsibility – emotional, physical, and financial. Men want more visitation, but they don’t want to pay more. They don’t want equality in the courts, they want special treatment in the courts. More time with the kids, less financial responsibility.

          • whatareuthinking

            And in a case I personally know about, a man decided to “fight” for custody for two reasons:
            1. he will be absolved of his child support obligation, which he chooses not to pay because he chooses not to work
            2. he will receive child support from the mother after he takes custody of the children, so he can continue to not work, and enjoy a better lifestyle

            Don’t think this is the only straight white guy in America who has pulled this stunt. @edtastic – In this case the court “favored” the mother.

          • glorybug

            They also shuffle off the care of the kids they “fought for” to who? Yes… other women. Nannies, babysitters or their new girlfriend.

            Most mothers in that situation would want the father to ACTUALLY have to care for their child — not hand them off to some other woman who is not their mother… just so they can avoid paying child support. How vindictive is that, that someone would pay a nanny to care for their child for them — but refuses to pay the same to the child’s own mother?

            Family law is on area I have seen where some real woman-haters come out. It’s all about winning, not doing what is best for their child.

          • Thanatos

            Because a man couldn’t possibly want to raise his own children, right? Naturally it’s just a power play to make sure the woman loses. Please tell me you don’t actually believe this…

          • Thanatos

            Again, I would be curious as to the source of your information. In my experience most divorce settlements come out of agreeable terms from both parties. There are occasions in which one party is essentially bled dry, but it’s not isolated to women. I’m all for child support, and visitation. I think the interests of the children are the focal point of any custody issue and while the courts aren’t perfect, they are most certainly TRYING to do their best for the children. Now the problem I have here is what I’m pulling from your argument. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like what you’re arguing for is men paying full support for the children while further limiting their visitation? That’s not fighting for equality, that’s fighting for dominance. Personally, I would fight tooth and nail for what you’ve painted as a burden.

          • KrisDStar

            Again, do your own research.
            I direct you to a blog that sums you up perfectly.

          • Thanatos

            I am aware of how spousal support and child support are calculated. Would you prefer the supporting party be bled dry? (Remember that another social movement right now addresses the difficulty in earning a living wage to begin with.) It’s considered a matter of means, and yes, lawyers do what they can for their client (husband or wife) and it’s not unheard of for a client to hide assets. I would say it makes sense that the parent with custody would be expected to provide for their child (regardless of gender) and the courts award support as just that, support. I would argue that what you are illustrating is more about poverty than gender, and would be curious to see the financial status of the supporting spouses for those 44% falling into poverty. (Child support statistics from the census bureau: http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/p60-240.pdf )

            As for the article you say sums me up, it was an interesting read. I don’t think I agree with the authors chosen approach, but then that’s not my choice. But I didn’t ask for you to explain feminism to me, I asked to you cite the basis for facts you founded your argument on. This is standard practice in any educated debate.

            As far as the supporting links you’ve provided, they seem to support my stance in regards to the disparity in custody awards. All three specifically tie the loss of wealth to the custody of children. Perhaps if more men were awarded custody, these figures would balance out? Now I don’t want to be misread as advocating we simply flip the existing problem and award custody to men simply because they’re men. What I’m arguing for is pushing the courts to discard the traditional bias based on gender roles.

            Yes, I have an opinion. Opinion is primarily what I discuss on these boards as discussions about facts don’t generally have much room for interpretation. I’m more than happy to take other peoples opinions into consideration, and I’m obviously fine with sharing my own. I would personally appreciate it if you would get off your high horse and actually engage in a conversation instead of treating posts you disagree with as attacks. It seems to me that we’re actually on the same page but coming at it from different angles. You’re looking at the financial burden of custody as an attack on women. I’m looking at the withholding of custody from fathers as an attack on men. We’re both citing evidence that shows the fallout of the bias in the system, no?

          • KrisDStar

            Bled dry? Really? Paying a fair share in the cost of raising a child is being bled dry?

            The stats speak for themselves. Women AFTER divorce fall into poverty. Try to put your man spin on it any way you want, but the facts still remain: women wind up in poverty after divorce, men don’t pay their fair share in child rearing costs.

          • Peter

            You seem to be putting as much “spin” on it too.

            “Divorced women enjoy different degrees of economic well-being internationally and in the United States because the distribution of public benefits varies around the world. A European study found that “[t]he income women possess on account of their economic activity seems to be relatively little affected by the break-up.” Though women are more likely to enter into poverty due to divorce than men, irrespective of the country in which the divorce takes place, in Social Democratic countries, because women’s welfare benefits usually increase sharply (and, in some cases, double) following divorce, women’s average net income increases by 32 percent.”

            You You are either carefully avoiding citing that you are speaking specifically about US statistics on divorce effects (in which case you’re falsely generalizing the situation of women *globally*) or you are carefully ignoring this bit of date that doesn’t back-up your argument. Both of which allude to your “facts” as more opinion/generalization.

            Additionally, the research also points to:

            “Following a divorce, the parent with custody of the children experiences a 52 percent drop in HIS or her family income.” (emphasis added)

            This correlates that poverty data is linked to custody of the child. Once again, since social rights emphasis is different in Europe, let’s consider this article discussing stats on child support and custody awards in the US:


            Kind of paints a different light on your own conclusions. In case you would want to dismiss it as being dated in 2011, the same article you quoted in Reason was research done in 2011 as well.

            Look, I’m not saying that there aren’t inequalities between genders based on privilege of power. But maybe lightening up on the buzzwords and the “you’re a man, you can’t know” rhetoric would actually help everyone be a little wiser and help improve things instead of keeping everything adversarial. Last time I checked the definition, equality doesn’t focus on who’s right but on how we become better PEOPLE (not men or women).

          • KrisDStar

            You are really trying to use social welfare as income?
            The point is, what you have missed, that the men don’t have to rely on social safety nets once they divorce.
            Did I say anything about women globally?
            Shall we then consider the countries where men have to pay lifetime alimony, regardless if the woman remarries? Because that would seem fair, and would make the US look even worse.

            His or her income? Yeah, that’s nice. Wonder then why most of the ones who wind up in poverty are the Her’s.

            Moving the goalpost isn’t going to win you any points.
            But nice try.

          • Amanda Russo


          • Thanatos

            Thank you for illustrating my argument so succinctly.

          • Amanda Russo

            Yep. Cause women are the ones who scream this to men on comments sections all the time. Oh. Wait. I forgot. MEN CONTINUALLY SHUT DOWN WOMEN WITH LANGUAGE LIKE THIS.

            Your problem is you desperately desire victimhood, but your privileged existence as a white man makes that impossible. So, instead of letting people discuss the problem brought up in this you derail the conversation to whine about “poor white men”.

          • edtastic

            Women usually mock men for not getting sex, being whiny babies, or some other for of school yard emasculating taunt meant to silence men who dare expose their own vulnerability. The bigot in you is rationalizing that since some men say things you don’t like that it’s acceptable to abuse any man you please. That’s a terrible way to look at the world and it’s not what social justice is about.

            “So, instead of letting people discuss the problem brought up in this you derail the conversation to whine about “poor white men”.”

            The male gender comes in all races. You should know that.

          • KrisDStar

            Emasculation as a concept in and of itself is sexist. It is saying that by “emasculating” a man you are making him like a woman. That being a woman is less than being a man.
            That a woman has dragged a man down to her level by emasculating him.
            It is sexist.

            Privilege comes in the form of white males.

          • glorybug

            So absolutely true.

          • edtastic

            Emasculation is meant to degrade and yes it’s a sexist term as is the intent in doing it. To strip men of their masculine identity for the purposes of subjugating or controlling them is approximately the same intent behind a slave master tying a man to a tree and whipping him until is skin falls off which is to break a man’s will to assert himself so he can be controlled.

            Do you understand? Yes men can forfeit masculine identity but that alone isn’t going to save them from bullies who’ll use any method at their disposal to undermine them. If he is feminine they’ll demand he be a man, if he’s masculine they’ll call him weak or a boy.

            I think it makes more sense to attack the people doing the bullying instead of the term used to describe it.

            “Privilege comes in the form of white males.”

            No it comes from money, power, and social status which all white males don’t have. Only a shallow bigot would assume they can judge large populations by race and gender alone.

          • KrisDStar

            “Strip men of their masculine identity. ”

            Again, sexist.

            Gender is not the same as sex.

            To emasculate is to remove the parts that define sex. Emasculation as a word, comes from castration.

            Even black males do not have the same power and privilege as white males. Even white females who are wealthy do not have the same power and privilege as white males do. White males are given opportunities on many areas in life simply for being born white, and with a penis.

            It’s a privilege to get to deny your own privilege.

          • edtastic

            That’s not sexist and I meant what I said. If men embrace a masculine identity that’s their business and women are free to do the same. If we seek to strip either of masculinity or femininity. Letting people be who they want to be is important. If you think it’s your job to tell men what gender identity they ought to have then I’d call you a person assigning them a gender role.

            “Even black males do not have the same power and privilege as white males.”

            That depends on the black or white male doesn’t it…

            “Even white females who are wealthy do not have the same power and privilege as white males do”

            Again that depends…

            ” White males are given opportunities on many areas in life simply for being born white, and with a penis.”

            That’s shallow tripe and you are again failing to show an understanding of this equality thing. Judging people as individuals is critical to it’s success. You have been lied too and misled by some devious adults who are dead set on recruiting people to expand their own power and reach. They need supporters and making you mad about something is how they get you. It doesn’t have to be real and half truths are the best because you won’t see the lie for a while.

            “It’s a privilege to get to deny your own privilege.”

            Where do you get this stuff? The most privilege denying people are the white women dominating the debate on gender in this country but they raise the argument more than anybody else. The group who comes in second are the white men playing the role of ally. What you aren’t seeing are a bunch of real minorities playing privilege games because nobody is listening to them. Their few and marginalized FOR REALZ

          • KrisDStar

            All I see is more and more mansplaining.
            No facts.
            Only opinion.

            I’ve got a real life “for realz” and if you can’t do the research, then I don’t have the time for you.
            Mansplain to someone else.
            This woman isn’t having it.

          • #confuzzled

            Men don’t continually do anything, and your statement that women don’t do this is an absurd overgeneralization. Some men and some women use that kind of language. Some don’t.

            I had no idea it was impossible white guys to be victims. You must be joking.

          • Thanatos

            I’d like to think I was helping to get it back on track, being that the ideals of feminism are equal rights for both sexes. Obviously, being a white man this couldn’t possibly have anything to do with me because of my privileged heritage, but I’ll fight for your rights anyway…

          • Kobukvolbane

            The fight for women’s rights has helped men, too. Perhaps even in family law.

          • edtastic

            Feminism acts as a women’s lobby pursuing women’s interest and the only reason men aren’t completely at their mercy would be the equal protection clause in our constitution. When it comes down to it male politicians who are mostly liberal or traditionalist aren’t going to side with the welfare of men over that of women in a family law situation.

          • JackPackMonkey

            Feminism says that men should have just as much equality when it comes to family law as women do. You need to do some research on what Feminism actually is.

          • edtastic

            Do you think I’m stupid? I think you do because the last thing I need a lecture on is what feminism is about because I’ve lived it along with hundreds of millions of other people. The family court was not balanced by feminism. It was made into a tool to empower women with “abusive” partners and to extract funds from that man while she walked off with his kids.

            The entire enterprise was focused around protecting mothers and I watched as the changes happened in my own lifetime. I remember the debates even as a child because I cared things like this. I recall when men started getting arrested for not paying child support and how people were trashing dead beat dads. I remember when VAWA first passed and must arrest began. I remember take back the night and no means no. I watched the Cosby show episode on date rape that sparked a national conversation. I was there to see and hear things I won’t find in a quick google search. I saw the shifting attitudes in women and the decline of respect for men. Heck I didn’t even think much of men anymore after a while.

            I heard nothing but contempt for men year after year and I’m still waiting for the day when we can have the mutual respect between the sexes I saw when I was a small child. This gender equality thing isn’t the problem. It’s the gender hate being used to promote it.

            It wasn’t a conversation on equality so much as who what when where why and how men suck. It was bitter women lashing out against men non stop for decades on end culminating in this period here where equality is self evident but they just refuse to accept it because it would mean they aren’t relevant anymore.

            Feminism makes me feel like i survived child of abuse because I never got the chance to have pride in being a man like my mother told me about. All I got was mega doses of GIRL POWER!

            Please don’t tell me to look it up. I really don’t need the B.S.

          • KrisDStar

            How many women a minute are abused by men? How many men a minute are abused by women? Yes, there is under reporting, but it goes both ways.

            There are protections for women from men, because men are the majority aggressor.

            Women who are divorced with kids are also much more likely to wind up in poverty. Not so for men.

            You might want to google “mansplaining” and see why it is that you aren’t getting far with feminists.

          • edtastic

            “There are protections for women from men, because men are the majority aggressor.”

            That’s debatable in proportion of support to victimization…

            Men are about 40% of domestic violence victims using conservative studies but women get nearly all of the domestic violence resources. There is sexism afoot and it ain’t favoring men.

            “University of New Hampshire researcher Murray Straus calls it “selective inattention” because of the total emphasis on female victims, despite what research has shown since 1977. Straus and his colleagues found that in minor violence, the incident rates were equal for men and women. In cases of severe violence, more men were victimized than women, with 1.8 million women victims of severe violence and 2 million male victims of severe violence a year. Women suffer a greater amount of total injuries ranging from mild to serious, but when it comes to serious injuries where weapons and object use come into play, the injury rate may be about the same.”


            “Women who are divorced with kids are also much more likely to wind up in poverty. Not so for men.”

            That’s debatable. on substance…

            ” 2009, women who divorced in the previous 12 months were more likely to be in poverty and reported less household income than recently divorced men. Some 27% of recently divorced women had less than $25,000 in annual household income compared with 17% of recently divorced men.”


            So considering women get custody 85% of the time I think we can figured out what happened here. Since men have limited incomes and are one person and the way we calculate poverty is by the number of people in the household it’s easy to see how this happened. Also men pay child support which isn’t deducted from their stated incomes.

            “You might want to google “mansplaining” and see why it is that you aren’t getting far with feminists.”

            I have a canned response for that which is you are using a gender slur to silence the opposite sex. You don’t take men’s perspectives seriously because you spoon fed yourself a ideology of gender hate masquerading as a cause for equality. You clearly care more about the gender of the person than their ideas which is what bigots do.

            I’m way more informed than you think so your not going to get over with these corny talking points meant to obscure rather than inform. Educating is a chore, but your a feminists so you know how that is…

          • KrisDStar

            Still not informed. You just tried to mansplain away the actual data, by inserting your own opinion on how the data should be read.

            While legislation does provide some assistance to men, it should be understood in the context of where the victims of violence are understood to be “overwhelmingly female” making up 84% and 86% of spousal and intimate partner violence respectively.

            Cook points out that women make up 20% of domestic violence arrests and, in the reissued version of the book released in 2009, shows how these figures have changed over time, reflecting reporting practices rather than a dramatic increase in the levels of violence.

            Recent data on sexual harassment in the workplace indicate that 70% of women and 45% of men have experienced some form of sexual harassment at work.

            Again, men are still the primary aggressors. Nobody is denying that women can be violent. But, women who leave violent relationships are more likely to be murdered, and if they aren’t murdered, likely to wind up in poverty. Not so for men.

            Men don’t need shelters at the same rate as women because they have the resources to help themselves more often. They have greater access to financial stability – if they leave the woman, they aren’t leaving without a penny and without clothing. Which is usually the way that women have to leave violent relationships.

          • edtastic

            “You just tried to mansplain away the actual data, by inserting your own opinion on how the data should be read.”

            Seriously stop using that term.

            “84% and 86% of spousal and intimate partner violence respectively.”

            Those stats are wrong and the DOJ needs to get their act together. Even CDC stats are far more symmetric but I settle on a 60:40 ratio for argument sake. Even with some degree of greater violence by men against women it in no way justifies the huge bias in DV advocacy that almost ignores men all together.

            Wow the 20% female arrest rate doesn’t even jive with the DOJ stats. Men report less than women and the studies show that. They also press charges less despite severe injuries.

            “Men don’t need shelters at the same rate as women because they have the resources to help themselves more often.”

            You are making up crap to suite your agenda. Men being more likely to have resources isn’t a data point for setting policy. It’s an excuse to ignore their problems and needs. This is the kind of sexism that comes with man hating feminism as opposed to the egalitarian version. Erin Prizzey who set up the first DV shelter in UK had to go to war with feminists over her concern for abused men. The feminists one and she’s now fighting with MRA’s. Look it up.

            These gender stereotypes are toxic and as times change that becomes even more apparent. You are too young to be outdated already and I assume you are young from your demeanor.

          • KrisDStar

            No, you don’t get to “settle” on what ever stat you want to use that you pulled out of your butt. That is not how it works. Either come up with data to back your argument or you’ve got nothing but lies.

            Men don’t have to press charges. Again, you’ve got no clue what you are talking about. Many states already have mandatory arrest rules. Keep on with the made up facts.

            I’m making stuff up? Uh, no. I’ve shown you data. You haven’t shown a thing. You’ve pulled numbers out of nowhere, you have no sources to back up your claims, and you don’t have a clue on how mandatory arrest states work.

            You are the prime example of a mansplaining sexist who can’t even bother to find his own sources.

            I have a masters in psychology, a masters in political science, and I am in school for a PsyD.

            I think the problem here is that you are used to people just accepting what you are saying because you are a man.
            If you don’t have evidence, then all you have is an opinion, and your opinion on this issue does not matter. Nobody cares that the man who is in the position of power and privilege thinks about those who are not. Of course you are going to fight to preserve the status quo, it has done so much for you.

            Erin Pizzey is a woman who has suffered horrid psychological and physical abuse from her own mother. She’s anti feminist.

            But, I’m sure you didn’t know that because you didn’t bother to do your research. You had an opinion, and it doesn’t matter.

          • KrisDStar

            Pretty sure I’ve earned the right to use that term. At least I’ve not called you a 12 year old.

          • KrisDStar

            Even if the men retained the children, the men would not wind up at poverty levels. You’ve missed the point entirely.

          • edtastic

            For one person poverty is $11,490 and for two it’s $15,510 and three $19,530.

            Do you see how that works? If a man make $12,000 a year and his wife made the same she’d end up in poverty with even one child. The only way women could avoid going into poverty is to make substantially more than their husbands if they have children. This isn’t hard to understand and it’s clear you don’t like the fact these things have sensible explanations.

            You prefer this dystopian view of men conspiring in some corner to oppress women. More feminism isn’t going to put money in his or her pocket. Feminst care about women in STEM not women without degrees working in the day care center caring for the women in STEM’s children for minimum wage.

            The poor need a movement focused on class not gender. The women needs a better relationship with her man not a reason to scorn him. Perhaps if we put social justice back in the hands of those who need it our perspectives wouldn’t be dominated by privileged women looking for leverage over the men in their lives. The best thing for poor men and women is to stick together. Maintaining two households is expensive so everyone suffers. Divorce is making poor people poorer.

          • KrisDStar

            Again, you’ve missed the point.
            The point is, once again even if the men retained the children they would not be at poverty level.
            Was that simple enough for you?

            All the rest of the mansplaining was just to distract from the fact that you are entirely missing the point and ignoring the data because it conflicts with your privileged position.

          • Myrdhale

            This is due to the presumption of women being inherently weaker then men, another idea Feminism fights again. Like many other opponents of feminism, you oppose it due to misattributing issues to it that it actually seeks to undo.

            Another factor is there is a far greater social stigma in a man seeking refuge or aid for domestic violence than a woman doing so (again, another issue feminism seeks to correct). I would also be curious as to how many times domestic violence is perpetrated Male on Male, as on a purely statistical basis Men tend to be more aggressive, and I could see male on male violence happening in situations where two men are cohabiting (regardless of their relationship; roommates, siblings, partners, etc.). But I will concede I don’t have the facts here and it’s entirely possible just as many women assault men in domestic situations as the other way around (this, however, does not include marital rape which does definitely skew much heavier towards women as the victims.)

            Falling incomes is a product of the disenfranchisement of the the middle and lower class. So is falling education standards. This hurts everyone, in different ways, and feminism also largely aligns to correcting these discriminations as well. You are constructing strawmen out of your very, very limited experience with gender relationship issues, and using it to condemn the entire movement based on your own biases and your refusal to believe that feminism could (and has) benefited men.

          • Leah

            Why are you so insecure and seemingly threatened by this?

          • edtastic

            Don’t play that game with me.

          • Hbezz

            Yes. I think you are stupid. Firstly, because the way you write is not particularly clear – you could do with some lessons in articulation and grammar. Secondly, because you disregard so many of the injustices faced by women – and in such an arrogant manner – because of nothing more than your own lack of self-esteem. Not being proud of being a man is not necessarily a bag thing. I am not proud of being English – knowing the horrors my country inflicted on people during colonialism. That doesn’t mean I hate myself. It just means I understand that there are things that were done in the past that it would be shameful to be proud of. I am proud, however, that I can acknowledge the wrong done by my own country and work towards making things better for everyone in the future.

            Do you know that women couldn’t vote in the UK until 1918? In Saudi Arabia women still can’t vote, or drive. 1918 is not that long ago – it means that women were excluded from making any major political decisions until less than a hundred years ago. Until then the structure of society was built completely by men, and women didn’t have a say in how their lives were governed. Of course that has had a huge impact on women’s lives today – it’s impossible to have an impact on institutions built over thousands of years in less than a century. You must be completely ignorant to not acknowledge that.

          • edtastic

            “Secondly, because you disregard so many of the injustices faced by women – and in such an arrogant manner – because of nothing more than your own lack of self-esteem. ”

            Really? Nothing more lack of self esteem? If I was a arrogant man I’d happily accept women as some downtrodden victim class for me to coddle at my leisure but I’m not. I see the same games being played by feminists women that I see taking place between men and women in personal relationships. They seem to treat social justice as so me sort of tool to get men to do what they want instead of a means of elevating the underclasses in our society. It’s petty and selfish. I rather despise people who’d abuse the moral high ground hard won over countless generations of often bloody struggle with the dominant classes in society to whom white women were married and still are to this day. I guess it shouldn’t surprise me that such women would actively conspire to insure no other group got a piece of the action by forcing the entire cause of social justice under a feminists banner. Now white women can control everyone’s means of liberation. Ain’t it grand.

            “Do you know that women couldn’t vote in the UK until 1918? In Saudi Arabia women still can’t vote, or drive.”

            That was 10 years after all men could vote in the UK. Saudi Arabia beats people on the street for violating religious edicts and they didn’t outlaw slavery until the 1980’s…NEXT

            ” it means that women were excluded from making any major political decisions until less than a hundred years ago. Until then the structure of society was built completely by men, and women didn’t have a say in how their lives were governed.”

            I’m sorry I’m descended from slaves and don’t give a damn about your petty feelings of historic disenfranchisement about power your sex didn’t have 100 years ago because despite of all that your ancestors were married to and raised the very men you call oppressors. They asked their husbands and often enough got the m. Male power over women has always been mitigated by men’s desire to please women. That’s not something slaves or the countless millions subjugate under white imperial/colonial power over the past several hundred years. Africans were only getting their countries back in the 1960’s.

            Acknowledge what? I’m sick of the games. I’m getting annoyed with the white power plays from white women. I’m sick of this war on men you wage on all men regardless of race. You have no idea what oppression is and neither do I because we are fortunate enough to be born in better times. Get over your phony victim crap. Trust me if that’s the game I’ll run circles around you because my people had to learn to win their freedom.

          • Get therapy, dude

            K thanks for revealing yourself as a disgusting MRA, now everyone can proceed to ignoring your hateful, sad diatribes.

          • edtastic

            You are the worse social justice generation EVER! Your parents should be ashamed of you.

          • Myrdhale

            Way to base everything on a you own anecdotal experience. You are wrong, fundamentally, about the nature of feminism. There has been no decline in the respect for men, what you’ve experienced is the ever growing number of men who are disenfranchised by the system for not being born into the right connections to support themselves. This is especially true vis a vis the shocking decline in education standards, which has demonstrably lowered the living conditions of men and women accross North America.

          • sadday

            The only men you see getting ‘shafted’ in family law are the ones that stuck around. A lot of men don’t, and it falls to the women to take up the slack, raising and paying for children that men have abandoned, and all on 70% of the salary that a man would get.

          • Jeff Middel

            Wage disparity is arguable and more complicated than commentators would address. Read up on it and you’ll see.

            Second, your generalizations don’t deal with the issue that family law favours one sex over the other.

          • edtastic

            That’s inaccurate assessment and I suggest you actually ask women if they are getting paid 77 cents on the dollar or are they working less than men and thus getting paid less. Women do on average end up earning less but that varies considerably by race. The factors leading to this are not discrimination with only 6-8% not being explained by other factors. Now you could make a case for a 6-8 cent wage gap due to discrimination but you’d also have to explain how the wage gaps between racial groups never manages to enter this conversation when Hispanic women are at 59 cents while white women are at 82 cents relative to white men.

          • Myrdhale

            Also factor in expectations for women to leave the workplace when they have a child, compared to men, and the societal bias against women entering STEM fields which under current trends pay on average better, and it’s clear to see why a disproportionate amount of wealth still ends up in the hands of rich white men.

          • Leah

            Maybe you should look within yourself (i.e., your insecurities) to understand why a simple article on feminism is such an issue to you…

          • Thanatos

            If you look back in the thread, you’ll see it’s not the article I objected to.

          • Tired

            Is it really impossible for you to understand what happens in our society al large, to see it is not just a generalization of the individual situations you personally see in your everyday life?

          • Charlotte

            The thing about many of the issues Men’s Rights groups are arguing for (family law issues included) is that they all have root causes in a patriarchal system of thinking. Men get shafted in family law because our culture lives by the tenet that women should be better caretakers for children when that isn’t necessarily the case. The goal of feminism (at least the current wave, intersectional feminism) is to address all of those issues as best we can. That includes having a focus on the ways that a patriarchal system screws men over (and there are a lot of ways in which it does this.)

          • Myrdhale

            You are the one assuming that feminism claims men have all the advantages. You are betraying your ignorance of the movement, which seeks to remove societal prejudice against both men and women. Prime example: Feminists push for Paternity leave.

            This is why Men’s rights advocates are toxic. They see a cause that doesn’t explicitly focus on them, infer it as an attack against them, and proceed to demonize it as a whole, attributing to it the societal prejudices they face, rather than the true source which are the gender norms forced on them by society at large. Whatever legitimacy the movement for men’s rights may have had in it’s infancy (say, by pushing for more acceptance of mental health issues among men, removing the stigma of depression many Men face) has long been eclipsed by misogynists attempting to legitimize their biases and desires to regress society to a point where women where not treated as equals.

            Movements don’t exist as abstracts. Men’s Rights Advocates, at large, have time an against demonstrated the deep rooted misogyny inherent to their understanding of gender relations. Until that is corrected, the label is tantamount to declaring yourself a bigot.

          • edtastic

            If all genders should be equal then why oppose a group that encourages equal compassion for men? The problem is feminists are trying to consolidate their power rather than be the inclusive group they once promised to be. They have invested a lot of activist capital in promoting negative male stereotypes and seeing that challenged as a form of hate would set them back considerably.

            Let’s do the right thing and stop enabling gender hate from feminists or anybody else. We can do the equality thing without showing favortism towards one sex or the other. In fact that’s the only way we can do it.

          • KrisDStar

            No, what is really happening is that men are losing their concentration of power. They must now share the power and the access to society with women. Men used to get into college just for having a penis. Now they must compete on an equal footing with women – and now more women are graduating than men.
            Men’s rights is simply a reaction to the fear that men will wind up where women used to be – at the bottom.
            Men’s Rights groups aren’t asking for equal rights – they already have the vast majority of rights. What they want is to keep men elevated above women.

          • edtastic

            Men are not a nor where the ever a homogeneous group with unified goals. They are people divided into rival factions fighting for self interest. If we look at the powerful as people they tend to seek to expand their own power often at the expense of the powerless. The powerless includes men and women. Your perspective on social dynamics is shallow propaganda which no intelligent person should fall for. I actually live on earth and think past the first feeling I get when I hear something. I know real men and women and they aren’t operating under the impression that the men around them have much power to begin with. Women work while men stay at home. Men remain unemployed for long stretches while depending on wives or girlfriends. That’s the new world and you don’t seem equipped to deal with it because your understanding is based on outmoded gender theories from the 1970’s.

            Competing with women isn’t the issue. Men are concerned with abusive women like yourself who seem to hate men who go through life looking for opportunities to put men down tor raise women up. That’s a campaign of hate and people don’t likes to be hated. I would not trust someone who used hate to control a gender with power so I wouldn’t trust you.

            Do you get it now? Equality is easy and men embraced it long ago. It’s you who are the problem now so get it together.

          • KrisDStar

            Women are underemployed at a higher rate. They are paid less for the same work. They are the ones who have to leave their place of employment for sick children more often.

            Women are often punished in many industries for leaving to birth and raise children – guess how many employers want people to explain “breaks in employment lasting 6 months or longer?” And how many of those men reading those applications do not feel that raising children is a good explanation of unemployment?

            Equality isn’t easy, if it were, then we wouldn’t even be having this discussion in the first place. Ask black men and women if equality is easy. Ask gay, lesbian, trans if equality is easy.

            You only see is as easy because you were already in a position of privilege. You didn’t have to climb the ranks. Men always had more rights than women. Women and other minorities had to fight to have the same rights that men already had.

            You trying to put it on par with the 70’s shows just how little you know about the actual situation. These are modern studies, based off of modern culture and society.

            Simply because you do not like my facts, or the fact that I won’t bow down to your penis having self, does not make me abusive. But thanks for being the shining example of the male privilege I was trying to point out in the first place.

          • edtastic

            You are again confusing life choice issues with equality. Equality does not mean you get to do whatever you want with your time and the society makes a way to give you the exact same results as a person who gave their time to a job. The job exist for company’s ends not your children’s welfare. That’s not patriarchy – it’s business.

            “Equality isn’t easy, if it were, then we wouldn’t even be having this discussion in the first place. Ask black men and women if equality is easy. Ask gay, lesbian, trans if equality is easy.”

            Actually I’m a black person but I don’t throw it in peoples face unless provoked. I can use my blackness to tell you that your full of it and the biggest obstacles blacks have today to having their issues heard is getting over the noise being made by young white women regarding gender issues despite their doing better than their male peers than any other generation of women EVER!

            You see equality is easy and since black people had to sell whites on it- it had to be easy. You treat people the same.

            Blacks couldn’t sell this equality with a asterisk that feminist use because whites don’t really care that much. Men on the other hand love women and will put up with your endless whining for decades without breaking a sweat. They can enjoy their girl making more money, or support her if she makes less. The sexes don’t hate each other – they take care of each other.

            Now if you matured your conversation such that you didn’t speak from a place of contempt for men it would be easier for everyone. The man hate stuff has stop. It hurts black men along with everyone else. In fact I argue hurts them more because broken families hit the poor the hardest and they are already have 35% of their population below the poverty line. A culture where there little compassion for men won’t stand up to our worlds largest prison population that happens to be 40% black men.

            This isn’t patriarchy- it’s America.

            “You only see is as easy because you were already in a position of privilege. You didn’t have to climb the ranks. Men always had more rights than women. Women and other minorities had to fight to have the same rights that men already had.”

            Tell me did you climb the ranks? You speaking over your breeches little girl. You can’t claim struggles that you didn’t go through. That’s real fake.

          • KrisDStar

            Wrong again. A job must be mutually beneficial or else nobody would work.

            Women do not get the exact same results for the exact same work, and the exact same time.

            Sex issues effect everyone. Black women have a more difficult time than black men. Shall I bring that data too?

            I didn’t grow up in the privileged US society. I grew up in Europe, which is much different than it is here.

            I did. thanks very much. I helped organize the NOW march on Atlanta. I helped organize several nurse ins. I have worked with several human rights organizations. Don’t presume that you know me.

            “Little girl.”

            Really? Shall I throw some derogatory terms your way?
            I’m 32 years old. With masters in psychology and a masters in political science. I am in a PsyD program north of Atlanta.

            Don’t talk down to me because I am a female and you are a male.

            If you don’t like the way it is, then change it. But to deny that the problems exist, isn’t helping anyone.

          • Lara

            Re-posted this on Facebook in the comments section and attributed because it’s brilliant.

        • Gray Adams

          I think that in this context, Men’s Rights Douchebag doesn’t refer to any person who advocates Men’s Rights, it refers to any douchebag who advocates Men’s Rights. Which is the majority of the Men’s Rights faction, considering the fact that men already have approximately all of the rights.

          • Exactly. Thank you for saying that, Gray. It’s word-for-word what I was thinking.

          • Thanatos

            Well for the sake of argument, let’s put the same satirical spin found in the article to the comment:

            “Ha Ha Ha. Whomever said sarcasm was the lowest form of humour was being sarcastic. Print this article out on 65 lb bond paper and whack your nearest “Feminist” bitch with it.”

            Now you tell me what kind of response you’d find in this community… Would you be ok with someone dismissing it as simply a matter of context, referring to man-hating “feminazi’s”?

            I think most people here are on the same page as far as the ideals of feminism, but the face painted by these kinds of comments is exactly what puts people off of the discussion as a whole. I’d also like to point out that once again you’ve displayed the dismissive behavior that feminism fights against:
            “considering the fact that men already have approximately all of the rights.” I will concede that there are many advantages for men, but there are still many arenas in which women still hold the advantage as well. Though I’d argue that looking at it like a battlefield is a disservice to both sides as well.

            I’m not in any position to tell anyone how to think, but I would hope that I can at least provide some perspective.

          • Anon Immous

            “There are STILL many arenas in which women STILL hold the advantage as well”…. maybe you should study the history of humanity a little harder… women have NEVER held advantages over men. What are these time periods and advantages that you are referring to?

          • Thanatos

            The first that comes to mind (due to my professional proximity to it) is the family law branch of our legal system. While it’s certainly not as lopsided as it once was, the courts still tend to favor the wife/mother by default. The parental rights of fathers are very frequently dismissed in favor of the mother for no reason other than favoring one gender over the other. As far as the time period, I’m going to go with today even though perhaps the last fifty years would hold a stronger case of disparity.

          • Kris

            The family law that you speak of does not “favor one gender over the other”. That is a poor reading of the situation. What is happening is that strict gender roles enforced by the patriarchy are coming into play in which women are still designated strictly as the caregivers. Supporting feminism in which women are equal and gender roles & stereotypes are abandoned would be more reasonable here.

            The same goes for men being drafted into the army, another common gripe from the mens rights movement. Blame that one on the patriarchy too for not allowing women in even when they wanted to go.

          • Thanatos

            Thank you Kris, I think for the most part we’re on the same page. I’m not presenting an argument as to the basis of the bias, but simply giving examples of the inequalities found in the system. I’d be curious to hear an argument that didn’t fall back gender roles dictated by societal norms. The point I disagree with you on is that the reliance on these gender roles IS favoring one gender over another (in relation to specific tasks.) In fact this is what gender roles do by definition, no? This is why I get so frustrated when people rally behind a title like feminism with a blind eye to the greater scope of the issues. If you’re going to argue from the presumption that gender roles are oppressing a particular demographic, would you not also have to acknowledge the struggle of any other demographic being oppressed through the same assumptions?

            Your argument seems to be based on placing blame on the patriarchal foundation of our society. I’m not seeking a group to blame, I’m looking at the parts that need to be updated and changed. Naturally these problem all relate to societal norms and assumptions based on gender roles. I’m sure we could spend hours discussing the evolution of gender roles in our society and others, and there is relevance to that discussion. But as far as the immediate fight for equal rights, it seems more prudent to me to simply address the problems in front of us. Case in point; regardless of the basis of these gender assumptions, the courts do currently favor women in matters of family law.

          • L

            But might ignoring (or putting them to the side temporarily) the basis of these assumptions ultimately hinder solving the problem at hand? Perhaps we could solve the “surface issue” here– that being the perceived favoritism (not saying I agree or disagree, simply that others do not view it as favoritism) through some sort of legislation but that does nothing to solve the long term issue of gender roles. Or do you think by virtue of that legislation more of society might accept new ideas of gender roles and it will just sort of work itself out from there?

            This is not meant to be an attack or anything of the sort. I’m just curious on your perspective on a solution.

          • Thanatos

            No offense taken at all. I appreciate an honest conversation. :) I would argue that the concept of gender roles is central to the discussion. The history behind how we came to them as they are provides perspective, but the gender roles themselves are what need to be addressed. Additionally, I don’t generally believe that social issues can be legislated. We can retool the system to be just and fair in how it views gender, but we cannot force individual perspectives. Social change take awareness and time, which is exactly what we’re seeing. There is a very loud voice for change, and it’s doing its job. Unfortunately I think the process is a bit slow for the tastes of many people, and they try to force the change which does little more than breed resentment and backlash. As far as my perspective on the solution: it is simply that we should be the best people we can be, and have honest and open discussions with people when these topics come up.

          • glorybug

            What you really sound like is a bitter ex-husband who didn’t get the custody arrangement he wanted, and wants to blame it on something, anything but himself.

            Your constant blathering about how women are so favored in family law court has been countered by many people, yet you ignore the facts.

            Should we go back to every year prior to 50 years ago? All the years since history has been written, about the non-rights women had regarding custody, child support, ownership of property, or even the right to divorce a man? Do we need to go back to all those thousands of years for you to feel better? Or, should we just keep seeing you trying to claim that the paternalistic male courts (who also wrote all the laws, mind you), allowed women to have all the responsibility and care (and poverty) by receiving custody a lot of the time in the last 50 years.

            This is the same type of selfish arguing that men’s rights groups are pushing for, especially when they insist on mothers NOT breastfeeding children, even though it is the ONE thing a parent can do to set their children’s health off right… because the man can’t breastfeed and it wouldn’t be fair. So, now, instead of doing the freaking logical thing, which is to allow the breastfeeding, baby gets fed a bottle by dad’s mom or new girlfriend, mom has to start using the bottle, and baby’s health is compromised.

            There was a valid reason for allowing custody for children under a certain age to their mothers. All you “law types” who keep claiming you know so much family law should have heard of the “Tender Years Doctrine”. You don’t come across as educated about law as you probably think you do.

          • Thanatos

            You’ve made an awful lot of assumptions in your argument. You’ve started with an assumption as to my background so perhaps I can provide more insight into my own perspective. I am not a bitter ex-husband, but a bitter son. I watched divorce rip both of my parents apart, emotionally and financially. I’ve grown up to work closely with Criminal, Bankruptcy, and Family Law. I’ve witnessed the system at work which at times follows what people here seem to think is the norm, and I’ve seen the inverse of the situation that people here seem to think never happens.

            You’ve chosen to use history as a justification for today’s inequities. This is akin to telling people racism is no longer a valid issue because slavery was abolished. Yes, things are better now than they were 50 years ago, that doesn’t mean we can’t still strive to make it better still.

            You’ve chosen to include a breastfeeding argument, assuming for some reason that I oppose it. The reality is I’m completely for breastfeeding, even to a point often considered extreme. My girlfriend leads the local “La Leche League” (and is also an avid feminist) and I support her whole heartedly.

            You’ve then chosen to close your argument by narrowing the debate to children of age four and younger. Now, as I’ve stated in some other replies, I acknowledge that family law is a difficult area to address to the fact there are millions of variables. There are cases in which the Tender Years Doctrine is taken into consideration, but this does not span the field.

            I’m not advocating against maternal rights, I’m advocating for paternal rights. These are not mutually exclusive ideals.

          • acklebee

            I think the harshness with which you speak does not help break the stereotype of the feminazi.

            I have friends who deal with custody issues and other issues. You can’t simplify this and put a person down in the beginning of your rant and not expect to then be seen as a stereotype.

          • glorybug

            “I think the harshness with which you speak does not help break the stereotype of the feminazi”.

            You do realize that you just criticized me for being “harsh”? And want me to stop being so, in order for me to be accepted as being “open minded and working towards equality”,eh?

            It appears that you think that will happen by trying to shame strong, intelligent and educated women into keeping their mouths shut, or at least trying to make whatever they say sound fluffy enough to not fit your stereotype of a “feminazi”.

            Not really much different from criticizing an angry young black man by saying that he seems too much like an angry young black man to deserve any equality. And, that he should ignore whatever discrimination and hardship he’s had in his life and “stop being a victim” simply because you are not in his shoes and don’t have the capacity to empathize.

            Perhaps when you get the clue that all people, male or female (or anywhere in-between), of any ethnicity can be harsh for very good reason without having to pull out your bag of stereotypes about how they “should” be, we can get somewhere regarding equality. Do you also make a habit of telling a man to stop being soft-spoken or uber-diplomatic and deferring, because they’re just making themselves look stereotypically gay?

            Also, no idea why in the world any person would feel the need to crawl back into the stereotype you prefer (in this case, the stereotype of the meek, always-pleasant, long-suffering female) because you want them to… who died and appointed you in charge? Do you really think so highly of yourself that you imagine other people will feel the need to stop asserting their rights and stop illuminating wrongs because it ruins the stereotypes you are comfortable with?

            Seems to me that you need to do some work on examining the boxes you think people should stay in.

          • edtastic

            “What is happening is that strict gender roles enforced by the patriarchy are coming into play in which women are still designated strictly as the caregivers.”

            That’s false because there are no strict gender roles and nobody is forcing women into them. These are women’s choices not men’s will. The men are the ones complaining about not getting access to their children because courts favor rewarding custody to mothers. That position is encouraged by women’s activists so I suppose your beef is with female focused activist pushing a gender role on women.

            Supporting feminism doesn’t help men when their is a conflict between the interest of men and that of women. If you haven’t noticed feminist are focused on advancing the interest of …women not men.

          • whatareuthinking

            Not true. Men are complaining because they are no longer in control of their wife.

          • edtastic

            Did you do a poll? Did you ask men? What it sounds like is you make up negative stereotypes so you don’t have to bother with what people really think. That’s how bigots operate and it’s pathetic.

          • KrisDStar

            Wrong. Men still hold the advantage. They still wind up with most of the finances, and less of the financial cost of raising children. That is not a disadvantage.
            When most divorced men with children wind up in poverty like women do, then you have some ground to stand on.

          • Thanatos

            Ok, I’ve seen a number of your comments and your attitude suggests there is little reason to engage you. Starting any addition to conversation with “Wrong.” as a pure and simple statement does not indicate any openness to perspectives outside your own. Rather than begin a fruitless argument, I would simply ask for some factual citations in regards to the family law outcomes as they are incongruent with my experience in the field as a general rule.

          • glorybug

            I think you are confusing your own personal resentment and dissatisfied personal experience with any real experience in the “field of law” as a “general rule” that you most likely have not had, other than when you went through a custody conflict yourself.

          • Thanatos

            Please see my reply to your other attack.

          • KrisDStar

            It is stating a fact.
            All opinions do not deserve equal respect.
            I know what the facts actually are.
            If you don’t like them, then do the research and find out why yours are wrong.

            I, in no way, have to do research for you.
            I have done my own. I have even earned a degree relating to the field.
            Your opinion based on your small scope, in no way is representative of the system as a whole. You have confirmation bias, and you do not access to the scope of the issue.

            Educate yourself.
            I may be a woman, but it isn’t up to me to educate you.

          • acklebee

            my father had to pay for my college and child support. He is not better of than my mom.

          • KrisDStar

            Ohh. Child support. The shame of having to financially care for the child you created.
            Totally unfair.

          • whatareuthinking

            Parenting is not about each parent making sure they protect their own “rights”, it’s about what’s best for the children. Mother’s are better nurturers, not in every single case but in general that is accepted as true. “The parental rights of fathers are very frequently dismissed in favor of the mother for no reason other than favoring one gender over the other”…what does that mean? There are many ways for non-custodial parents (fathers) to be important participants in raising their children.

          • glorybug

            I think what they meant to say was that up until that day in court, the mother had been taking full physical responsibility for the child. Breastfeeding, cleaning, taking to doctor visits, getting vaccinations, etc.

            Since women have breasts and can breastfeed, courts who think perhaps she should continue doing that are “favoring one gender over the other” in their opinion. In other words, biology is not their strong suit, and obviously the child’s best interests are of no concern.

          • acklebee

            yeah right and many women are drug addicts or neglectful or a million other things that both sexes suffer from that make them a bad parent. A woman who gets pregnant and gives birth does not make her a good mother. Look around. I see terrible mothering every day.

          • acklebee

            now that is a stereotype and really is not true. That all women are better nurturers is not true. I have seen it over and over again that there are better fathers than mothers – in many many cases. You are not helping feminism. This is why there is the backlash. It is not all because everyone wants to hate and own women.

          • Jeff Middel

            To state that patriarchy has always been monolithic in its scope and power structure is indeed to deny history. I can think of some succinct examples in Western European history in which women have held absolute advantage over men. The names Queen Elizabeth I and Queen Victoria come to mind. Never? Really? And that’s from a very narrow historical window in English history alone.

          • Amanda Russo

            You think just because there have been TWO English monarchs that were female that the patriarchy doesn’t exist? You do realize that two examples, both which occurred at a time when being any other woman besides for those two women meant having a fairly horrible life, means absolutely nothing? Wow! Try opening up a history book and taking a look at how women’s lives were in the Elizabethian and Victorian period. I am seriously doubting your objectiveness after a comment like this.

          • Jeff Middel

            You’re creating a strawman argument. I was responding to your statement that, “women have NEVER held advantages over men. What are these time periods and advantages that you are referring to?”. I have identified two specific times when women had next to absolute power in just one country in fairly recent history. You said women never held advantage over men. That was either ill-informed, a lie, or a misunderstanding of the facts. And I either informed you, exposed your lie, or helped you understand that it is inaccurate.

          • KrisDStar

            They did not use that power to systematically oppress and repress men.
            Women were still being oppressed in society even though a woman was in power.
            You’ve made no argument at all.

          • Jeff Middel

            Did they have advantages over men at that time? Those two single women in those two specific circumstances?

            If they did, then you must acknowledge that my statement is true.
            Sheesh… I love how people on here are willing to down vote the truth. FUCK.
            This board alone is swaying me away from appreciating even the relaxed feminism supported here.
            Such dishonesty in the face of hard evidence.

          • KrisDStar

            Uhm. What? You have no clue about feminism. It is not about two women who have power over men. It is about how people in power use that power to oppress other people.
            You’ve just got gibberish.
            Black people have positions of power over white people. But they are not using that power to oppress white people. See the difference?

            Keep on mansplaining.

          • KrisDStar

            You’re so full of it.
            You have no hard evidence. You have an opinion. Your male privileged opinion.
            And you are mad because the women won’t accept your male privileged opinion without facts.
            Boo hoo for you.

          • acklebee

            the two of you are falling apart in defending yourselves .. you and glory bug are the reason people do not want to be feminists and do not want to support it. You are “Blamers” and “victims” Read what you’re saying. It is not educated and it is reactive. You cite no facts and the depth at which you explain your argument may work in the school yard but you’re grown up now, expand your knowledge beyond the simplistic sexist stereotypes. AND YES, you are being sexist towards men. Clearly.

          • KrisDStar

            It’s time for men to take responsibility for the society they created.
            It’s as simple as that.

          • bdubs

            If we really did what was best for the society we created, little crack whores like you wouldn’t have the right to anything of influence in the world

          • glorybug

            No, you identified two specific women who held some degree of power, not a “time period” when “women had power” in a country or an advantage over men.

            You do, indeed, need to open a history book. Those two women did not get into those semi-powerful positions on their own or because of a time period, and they were used and manipulated by all the MEN in power behind the scenes. If there had been male heirs before them, the women would have had no power at all.

            Queen Victoria’s uncles died, and Queen Elizabeth’s only male relative was an illegitimate half-brother.That you would use two women’s luck of having their male siblings or relatives die and get some propped up “power” as some example of supposed advantages women have had over men is bizarre.

          • Jeff Middel

            You’ve re-drawn the lines. Consider the statement I was disproving. Those women did indeed hold power over men.

            Further, there are plenty examples of matriarchal societies that are conveniently ignored. I’d give links, but no one else is bothering to either look at my links or provide evidence for their own claims, so I don’t think I need to.

          • shakepia

            Saying that women have advantages in society because of Queen Elizabeth and Queen Victoria is like saying black people have advantages in society because Obama is president.

          • Jeff Middel

            Saying women have had advantages in the past, with Queen Elizabeth and Queen Victoria as examples (since someone here said women have NEVER had advantages) is like saying a black person has advantages with Obama as an example.
            Yours is a strawman and perhaps a deliberate misreading of the post and the context of the discussion.
            Do you think “winning” is worth it if you need to use dishonesty?

          • glorybug

            They were only reigning at all because there were no male heirs before them. That is hardly an advantage they got for being female.

            And, it did not change the lives of a single woman living in their countries, who continued to live harsh, disadvantaged lives under paternalistic societies.

            You’re acting like the queens were elected or something, lol.

          • Jeff Middel

            So those queens had NO advantage over males?
            You’re making excuses for why they had advantage over males, so you’re tacitly agreeing.
            Hard to admit when there’s a lie that proves your theory wrong, isn’t it?

          • KrisDStar

            Two queens did not systematically oppress and repress men. Nice try though.

          • Jeff Middel

            Missed the point… of course! Consider what it was a response to. Women have NEVER held advantages? I’ve demonstrated that to be patently false. But instead of people (like yourself) acknowledging that yes, it is false, you try and make excuses.
            In other words, you are perfectly satisfied with others on here lying to support their and your opinion.
            Why am I not surprised?

          • KrisDStar

            You’ve missed the point.
            The point is, that the women in power did not use that power to systematically oppress and repress men. Men have used their positions of power to systematically oppress and repress women.
            You had no point.
            “Oh look, a black man is president, that must mean that civil rights had worked, and we don’t need those anymore.”THAT was your point, but using race instead of gender. See how stupid that sounds?

            When you can show that women have used their positions of power to do to men what men have been doing to women for millennia, then you have a point. Until then, you’re mansplaining, and you’ve got nothing.

          • edtastic

            ” women have NEVER held advantages over men”

            Of course they do but if you choose not to see them that’s your business. Don’t tell those who do they’re making it up because we can find the proof all over the place. Right now we have a 20% gender gap in degree attainment with women on top along with girls ending up 70% of the high school valedictorians. Men make up 92% of prisoners, 80% of suicides, and 80% of murder victims. Those would be relevant advantages over men and I could go on.

          • KrisDStar

            Nope. That is because you men were used to getting into college based on the sole criteria of having a penis. Now you must compete equally with women. No special treatment for having a penis. The fact that men have fallen behind is not the fault of women.

            Men are more likely to commit violent crime. Also, most of the violent crimes are against other men (male on male) or against women (male on female.) In your scenarios the issue isn’t women, it’s men.

          • Hateful frat boy mysoginist

            So… I only went to college once, and most of the people I met there were in college for the first time. I’m not sure any of us are “used to getting into college” for any reason…

          • KrisDStar

            The grown ups are talking.

          • edtastic

            Women exceeded men in college

            “That is because men were used to getting into college based on the sole criteria of having a penis.”

            Men had to compete to get in college and women have been in colleges for well over a hundred years now so you don’t know what the heck your talking about…

            All you seem to know how to do is play the role of immature mean bully. This isn’t social justice because you don’t care about people. What thrills you is hurting people you see as threats to an ideology you built an identity around. If feminism had to rely on people like you it would have failed. Thankfully mature women did the heavy lifting so children like you could get away with mindless rants without consequence. Those days are ending and people aren’t going to put up with these sorts of disparities because they care about men and boys.

            “The fact that men have fallen behind is not the fault of women.”

            I can blame women like you all day because your man hate has made it too difficult to address the needs of boys. I figure you are like 12 years old so you probably didn’t live though that era in the 1990’s where we went about restructuring education to serve girls better. You have no idea what equal treatment is because you were born and raised in a culture that pandered to the needs of women as a result of the dominant ideological of feminism which influence nearly every aspect of the society. Now that boys are behind it only makes sense to help them too but in order to do that we have to shut down gender haters like yourself.

            ” Also, most of the violent crimes are against other men (male on male) or against women (male on female.)”

            Do you have the same thing to say about black people? They have much higher violent crime rate than whites but a half assed social justice warrior like yourself never considers the lasting implications of your bigotry to minorities. I’ve had enough of nasty people like you ruining good causes with your horrible attitudes. I reject the hate and will fight it to the end.

          • KrisDStar

            Actually, men didn’t have to “compete” in college. Those who went to college was a much smaller percentage of the young population. If you had the money, and a penis, you got into college. It really was not that difficult.

            Women had to fight for the right to get into college. It does not matter the length of time ago that it was. There were recently colleges that did not want to admit women at all. They had to go to the Supreme Court to force the colleges to comply.
            So, while the vast majority of colleges admit women, there were still ones that tried not to.

            But of course, you didn’t know that. Because it didn’t directly impact your life.

            You want to start talking ideologies and psychology? Let’s. I’m pretty sure that the fact that I’m working on a PsyD will trump your google psych.

            I got all kinds of reasons why you deny that huge disparities exist between male power and female power.

          • KrisDStar

            I know to to address the needs of boys.
            I do not address the needs of privileged men like who who continually put down women for not wanting to maintain the status quo.

            You’ve tried to insult me by stating that I am a child.
            A woman, who acts like a child.
            Women, childlike.
            Because that’s NOT sexist?

            You don’t reject the hate. You’ve just projected all your hate on me, because I don’t go along with what you have to say. Because you are a man, and I am a woman. And as the woman, I should take what you say without asking for evidence.

            I out educate you, and you can’t stand it. So you will try to tear me down and put me in my place – the place of a 12 year old.

            How mature of you.

            You can try to fool yourself into believing that you are for equality, but you are not. You’ve proven yourself over and over to be sexist.

          • glorybug

            And, no doubt, you will keep going on. And on.

            I love it when a select few men make it a personal mission to post on any article that has the word ‘feminist’ in it — to dominate the entire comments section with boo-hoos about how what we really should be talking about is how rough men have it.

            In other words, to take over and essentially make themselves the center of attention — by having to disagree with, “correct” and argue with anyone who doesn’t allow you to bogart the comments section and make it all about me, me, me!!!

          • edtastic

            It’s sad how few men have to speak up for the rest because most don’t feel comfortable debating these issues amid all the hostility. Your response isn’t one of compassion it’s smug dismissal as if men who dare to demand equal compassion and respect for men from feminists are some great evil the society need purge itself of. You’d be the sort who’d loves to dominate and look down on people you view as inferior. I’m not that kind of person. I’d rather elevate and reach out even to those I strongly disagree with.

            That doesn’t make me a better person but it does make me a better debater. I can see both sides because I don’t rely on a group think circle jerk to stroke my ego.

          • KrisDStar

            Feminists have an actual complaint.
            Men’s Right groups do not.
            You can be oppressed and repressed as a sex, by the society that your sex created and continually benefit from.

            Women hardly hold enough advantage in any part of society to systematically oppress men.

          • edtastic

            What rights don’t women have in America that men do? Your point is moot. We call these things ‘rights’ because their rooted in a social justice tradition of fighting for rights. It’s there for lack of a better term much like ‘womens rights’. Both are lobbying for issues affecting their respective genders which may or may not be actual ‘rights’ issues.

          • glorybug

            Lol. Well, it would be nice if women were included as having rights, such as with the Equal Rights Amendment. Because, as it stands, we still don’t.

            Now, if you want to argue that women are included, even though the original language NEVER implied that, and you want to say that women should be happy falling under the “all men are created equal” banner, then lets switch the wording around. Let’s see how happy you would be if it was worded “all women are created equal”, and it also (even though it didn’t originally) means men are equal, too.

            So, for a start, either change the wording to “all persons”, or just get the damned ERA put in! When we can’t even acknowledge that there is not one reason to oppose the ERA… yet how many years later, it’s still not giving women legal rights — we have a problem.

          • edtastic

            “Lol. Well, it would be nice if women were included as having rights, such as with the Equal Rights Amendment. Because, as it stands, we still don’t.”

            Yes it was successfully challenged by a women who knew understood how many perks women stood to lose if it passed. As it turns out men were the ones who’d need it more and it’s easy to see how many gender biased laws were passed since then which favored women. You can thank Phyllis later.

            “it’s still not giving women legal rights”

            What rights don’t you have? Oh yeah selective service well the supreme court upheld that bit of gender discrimination burdening young men.

          • glorybug

            Blah, blah, blah and blah. Because that’s the shit you throw out there.

            I’m guessing you are either about 20-something, or you are a 40-something whiner.

            Boo, hoo, hoo.

            I’m a men’s rights bitcher, and I approve of this.

          • glorybug

            Phyillis? Nasty, nasty, nasty. Evil. She was evil. Obviously you are rabidly conservative, so you could give a shit if someone was a lying piece if shit, as long as they agreed with you?

          • bdubs

            MRA’s try to advocate that men actually do face problems. In the UK, the leading cause of death among young men is currently suicide. Whenever, MRAs try to draw any attention to this male problem, feminists and their neutered followers like you lobby against it because they’re heartless and you’re brainless.

          • PresenceLOVE

            Men have all the rights? Women have a monopoly on reproduction… women get 97% of alimony! Women can hit men in public with zero legal remifications but if a man even defends himself against a violent woman? HE GETS SENT TO JAIL!

            Most charity and gov funds for the poor go to women! There are over 9 homeless men to every 1 homeless woman… Women get custody over 88% of the time! Men have to sign on to selective service to get the privliage to vote… women have to do exactly nothing to get the priv to vote!

            Single mothers get all types of assistance from the gov… single fathers get ZERO!

            Please tell me how men have all the rigths again? Not in a single are in this society do men have more rights then women… NOT ONE!

        • cat

          He never wrote or implied males should hold fewer rights. He was making the point that society plays out a number of logical tropes which put females at a default disadvantage both socially and professionally. You sort of pulled that “advocacy against equality” bit out of nowhere. It seems you feel the mere conversation of female advocacy is a default attack on men. Perhaps you should read the article again.

          • EM

            Cat, I wish I could “like” your response 20 times! The attitude represented by men who complain about feminism reminds me of the schoolyard bully who hoards all of the toys, and when someone suggests he share a few of them, he thinks he’s so hard done by. People like that need to take a good long look in the mirror.

          • Lorenzo

            That’s unfair.

          • Mens Rights

            To state that women have disadvantages and men don’t is what the men’s rights movement seeks to expose. Men have far greater disadvantages than women except that the variables are different.

          • Anon Immous

            Oh really? What are these ‘far greater disadvantages’ that men face? Can you provide some examples?

          • Chris Henn

            Likelihood of death by murder or suicide comes readily to mind.

          • Amanda Russo

            And how is that women’s fault?

          • Thanatos

            So you’re seeking someone to blame and fight rather than to fix the problem?

          • Amanda Russo

            No, I believe you are the one doing that.

          • edtastic

            If men want to raise the issue they have to fight feminists who insist men’s issues are irrelevant. These feminists are a group dominated by women who discourage compassion for men because they assume men are already too privileged. The few people raising the issue are targeted by feminists for shaming and ostracizing because they dare to take men’s problems as seriously as they would a women’s.

            Women are’t to blame but women’s activist have a lot to answer for in how people have been pressed to manipulate and suppresse data on male victimization over the years.

          • Chris Henn

            I think the more important question is “Should deciding whom to blame really be our highest priority?”

          • alytron

            Men are more likely to *successfully* suicide. Mostly because of the means of suicide. Look it up. Women and men are about equal, women just tend to use methods that are more likely to fail or are easier to be rescued from. The theory is that women tend to think more about those that will find them or have to deal with the aftermath. murders of men are generally committed by men, so i’m not sure how that fits.

          • edtastic

            When your dealing with suicide the goal is to save lives not win a gender war by claiming women trying are incompetent. It’s obvious that one intends to die and the other is making a cry for help. The men aren’t going to get help because they will likely be dead so helping them PREVENT matters far more.

          • Chris Henn

            Anon asked for examples and I politely provided two. You seem to be arguing that if something is due to male choices it can’t be disadvantageous to men. Do you think the same is true of women?

            I found your tone rather condescending, so allow me to retort in kind: why a metric exists isn’t relevant to this discussion. To give an example I’m sure you’ll agree with, take the fact that men and women still have unequal incomes. That is due to a lot of reasons, and if I wanted to, I could cherry pick from them and argue that it’s evidence of men being disadvantaged. But it would be absurd to do so, because making less money is in itself a disadvantage. It’s not evidence of sexism, it is the metric we measure sexism by.

            Likewise, dying from suicide is a disadvantage. If we agree that suicide is a bad thing, we agree that men are disadvantaged relative to women. If you want to get into why disadvantages exist, I encourage you to do so from a standpoint of looking for solutions, rather than looking for someone to blame.

          • KrisDStar

            Murder by another male. Again, the problem is men, not women. Suicide has to do with mental instability. Women are more likely to be depressed than men are. Men are more likely to try to commit suicide because they are depressed.
            Men are also less likely to seek psychological help for depression.
            It is not the fault of women that men are killing men.
            It is not the fault of women that men won’t seek help for depression.

            It is the fault of men that women are raped at a much higher rate.
            It is the fault of men that they beat their wives more often.

            See the difference?

          • Mandy

            Actually I think that men are more likely to SUCEED at suicide vs women. Men often use methods such a guns which have a higher chance of death vs women who are more likely to use methods such as ODing on meds or chemicals or cutting. But otherwise yes I agree with your comment.

          • KrisDStar

            It is true men use more lethal means.
            But, that is not “because of” women. It is not a variable that includes women.
            Women aren’t raping themselves.
            That is the point I was trying to highlight.

          • KrisDStar

            That is a bunch of crap.
            Men don’t have more disadvantages than women.
            What has happened is they no longer have the advantages that come along with having a penis.
            You want those rights back.

          • Thanatos

            “Print this article out on 65 lb bond paper and whack your nearest “Men’s Rights” douchebag with it.” doesn’t sound combative to you? Men’s rights is imply the other side of feminism, they’re both fighting for the same thing: equal rights. Just because they don’t face identical adversities doesn’t make one less valid than the other.

          • Anon

            To be on the Male side of this circlejerk, I agree with you Thanatos. I wish I could like your comments over and over.

            Women’s rights are important. Women have gotten the wrong end of the deal, and they deserve better, there’s no arguing that.

            However, a lot of feminists, especially those in the comment sections of wonderful articles like these, tend to promote the idea of, “Yeah, fuck men and their rights. They are useless and dumb.” Of course this is exaggeration, but the comments seem to be combative towards males a lot of the time.

            There are a lot of ways that men have it better than women There are also ways that we have it worse, few as they may be. To turn a blind eye to those in favor of your own gain is not promoting equality.

          • Asaryu

            I think now there’s a misunderstanding of the difference between mens rights and feminism. Feminism is about levelling the playing field for both men and women. We want paid parental leave for men if they want to be primary carers for their children. We also want equal pay for work. We understand that gendered stereotypes hurt both genders.

            ‘Mens rights’ is “Men have problems too and women should respect that”.

            I don’t agree that the comments around mens rights should be combative, but don’t come to a feminist party and tell me how hard done by men are. I already know how hard done by they are and I already advocate for them. To use the triage metaphor, though: If I have 2 people in my waiting room, I’m going to help the one who is bleeding out and been waiting hours, not the one who has stubbed their toe and just arrived.

          • Anon

            I totally agree with you. Women need their issues resolved. We are in 100% agreement.

            However, to use your metaphor, if I were bleeding out in a waiting room and was being seen to first, I wouldn’t jeer at the person with a stubbed toe and belittle their pain just because mine is greater. That’s just being an asshole.

            Sure, men have it much easier that women in this world. Women have a lot of problems in this modern society that need to be solved. I believe in the Feminist cause all the way.
            And sure, some MRAs are total asshats that think Feminism is a joke and men’s problems are just as high on the list as women’s. I understand that. I’d just like to read an article about feminism once without seeing combative comments towards men.

            The reason that a lot of men are defensive against Feminist arguments, from my own observations, is that while Feminists are working towards equal rights, overly-aggresive comments like a few on this page threaten us men. They really do.
            They make us think that you want to put women on a pedestal while knocking men down. Of course, this is from my perspective purely, and may not blanket other men’s reasons.

            And I wasn’t trying to come in to your party, piss in the punch, and leave. I apologize if it seemed that way. I wasn’t trying to belittle Feminist ideals or tell you how hard men have it. I was just shedding some light on the male perspective. If we want equal rights to work, we’ll have to open to everybody.

          • KeraPingree

            “I’d just like to read an article about feminism once without seeing combative comments towards men.”

            Um, I’d just like to live 5 minutes of my life without hearing combative comments attacking the female gender. You seriously need to check your male privilege. Sure, men have disadvantages. But they do not equal OPPRESSION. They do not equal 80 cents on the dollar.

            So sure. Cry about not getting default custody of your kids, while your ex tries to hold it together for all of them while making less than you for the same job and having her worth degraded every day on the basis of her being a woman. Keep complaining about it! Because that’s what MRAs do.

            The difference is the power dynamics in our society. Men have much, much more power than women. Women have much, much less power than men. Got it yet???

            Alright, moving on. Because men have numerous social advantages over women, the women’s rights movement is necessary, and the men’s rights movement is equivalent to a person with immense social advantages complaining about not having ALL the advantages. And the advantages that they don’t have (like not getting default custody) STILL hurt women, because they’re based on gender stereotypes that hurt everyone.

            You have privileges that women don’t. This hurts women. You don’t have certain privileges (like default custody) and this hurts men AND women. And you have the nerve to complain about it and try to become the center of attention???

            Get a grip.

          • edtastic

            “But they do not equal OPPRESSION. They do not equal 80 cents on the dollar.”

            You need to get a grip if you think women are oppressed in America. We don’t have a oppression problem and that word has been abused and misused for far too long by well off people who don’t have a clue what circumstances it’s meant to describe. The gender pay gap isn’t what you think it is and if you took the time to research the issue you’d get that. Most of it is due to men and women choosing to work different amounts of time in different sorts of places. That’s even what I read on a study by a women’s group. If we had that kind of discrimination the EEOC would be in court forever and trial lawyers would be making money hand over fist. Pay gaps do happen but they are tiny.

            “The difference is the power dynamics in our society. Men have much, much more power than women.”

            That’s false unless you think the power of one man magically transfers to the next. That just doesn’t happen. A homeless man on the street is not empowered by the CEO walking past him. Most men and women live at the same class and relative power level in the society. Going into the future female will be the most educated and will only earn less if they choose to work less as they often do. This phenomenon of women working less is prevalent in well off countries where women can afford to do so and less so where they can’t.

            “Alright, moving on. Because men have numerous social advantages over women, the women’s rights movement is necessary, and the men’s rights movement is equivalent to a person with immense social advantages complaining about not having ALL the advantages.”

            No it’s equivalent to a living in a culture where men will sacrifice the needs of men for women to the point of not caring at all about the welfare of men. It’s far easier to make a man a feminist than to make him a MRA because patriarchy itself encourages men to show greater compassion for women. Men seeing themselves as weak or vulnerable goes against masculine impulses but it’s what required to show themselves equal compassion along with other men. Feminist could take credit for getting that ball in the air but they dropped it a long time ago.

            Yes we could go on blaming patriarchy but feminists need to consider how much of what they do exploits patriarchy by encouraging men to behave in a paternalistic way when it comes to women’s needs while ignoring those of men who they view as more self sufficient.

          • Asaryu

            “Most of it is due to men and women choosing to work different amounts of time in different sorts of places”

            But why are the jobs that women tend to have paid less? Is it because our work is worth less? Our time is worth less? Our expertise is worth less? Or because female-dominated professions are paid less because the people (men) who choose where the money in an organisation goes don’t value them? In my profession (librarian) we talk all the time about wanting more men in libraries and more men in schools because it brings a fresh perspective to the workplace and the profession as a whole. We want men for the fact that they are men and we celebrate their difference and what they have to offer. I don’t hear too many men talking about wanting more women in their workplace to get fresh perspectives and new ideas.

            You can’t tell me that when I worked as 2nd in charge position for a company and was still expected to get the tea for the boys that I had an equal power relationship with men. People in the room literally gasped when I told the boys that they had arms and legs and they could get it themselves. People thought I would be *fired* for it. I was lucky that it was harder for the boss to replace me than it was for him to make his own tea.

            Once I was in a HR position for a small company who had a job going as a delivery driver. This delivery driver would have to carry 15L containers of liquid from a truck and place them on a doorstep. I was explicitly told that I was not to take the details of women because they “couldn’t carry that kind of weight” DESPITE the fact that when we were busy I myself would go out and load and unload trucks with the same containers. I told the boss that I would take down their details and that not giving these women a chance could be on his conscience, not mine.

            Or when I used to work as a library assistant and I was sent as a messenger to get the boys to go move furniture. Boys who had the exact same job description as I did. I asked why I couldn’t do it and the woman who was allocating the job said that “we let the boys do that kind of work”. I asked her exactly where in my job description it said that I was exempt from doing my job if there was a big, strong man around to do it for me. I refused to let the men I worked with be allocated extra work on the basis that I was a woman at the same time as I refused to be hobbled in my ability to carry out my work on the basis of my gender.

            It is not compassion that men are forced to feel for women by patriarchy. It is paternalism. You feel compelled to look after us as though without your male help we are unable to look after ourselves. It is foolish to mistake this for compassion. Compassion is something you feel for an equal. Compassion is something you can feel for a man. Pity is what you describe feeling for a woman.

            “feminists need to consider how much of what they do exploits patriarchy by encouraging men to behave in a paternalistic way when it comes to women’s needs”

            First point: not all women are feminists. The actions of some women, who may exploit the current patriarchal system to receive benefit, do not constitute the actions of all feminists. that is a fundamental straw-man argument. In one moment you say that feminists hate the patriarchy and blame it and in the next you say that feminists use the patriarchy for their own gain. Which is it? They are either tearing it down or building it up. Choose.

            Second point: Patriarchy does hurt men too. Men aren’t entitled to feel the same kinds of emotions about other men that women are able to show freely about women. But women are expected to show those feelings. I can’t tell you how often I’ve been accused of being cold-hearted and horrible when I don’t show the same kind of (to me) over-the-top emotion that other women show. I am belittled and mocked for my personality traits that are masculine. Possibly not as much as a man might be mocked for showing feminine traits, but in more subverted ways. In my country I won’t be bashed for wearing pants in the same way a man might be for wearing a dress, but I have been humiliated all of my adult life for not wanting children. I have been accused of being a slut and a whore for the love I have shown. I have been questioned about my sex life in the way only a man feels entitled to question a woman. I have been accused of being a cock-tease for sitting and watching a movie with a man and not letting him have sex with me. These things happened because I am a woman living with patriarchy. And these men? They have not had the chance to be taught compassion. They have been told that a womans personal life is theirs to scrutinise. They have been taught that a woman who is friendly is asking for it. They have been taught that a woman who does not want children is no real woman. These things hurt men too. They limit the identity of men. They limit the relationships that these men can have. They limit that joy and value that these men can find in life by limiting the way they are allowed to see themselves. patriarchy hurts men and women.

            So let’s tear it down together.

            Let’s tear down the patriarchy together. I was not afraid to stand up to my boss and tell him to make his own fucking tea. I stood up to a supervisor and told her that I’ll be doing any jobs that need to be done in my area and that a penis isn’t required to wheel a table across the room. I stood up and risked my livelihood to say that the work and the skills and the expertise of women is worth the same as the work and skills and expertise of men. You? What do you risk to say that mens needs are equal to womens? What do you put on the line? Who do you stand against? Because if you tell me that my fight isn’t worth fighting, that my fight isn’t as important as your fight when we are fighting the same fight, then the only people you’re standing against are the only people who care about your needs. You are fighting the only people who truly want what’s best for men and for women.

            You don’t get to tell me that feminism is wrong when you can’t even tell me what feminism is.

          • #confuzzled

            I’d say it’s more because the jobs themselves are worth less.

            Engineering degrees don’t pay better than gender studies degrees because of sexism, they pay better because companies need engineers more than they need gender studies majors.

            You seem to be implying we have some body of men out there getting together and planning the economy, but that’s not really how capitalism works.

            Your anecdotal evidence is nice, I suppose, but it doesn’t reflect society as a whole, it reflects your own experience which doesn’t represent, necessarily, the human experience.

            Also, the social pressures you describe as patriarchy and paternalism aren’t exactly patriarchal or paternalistic, because men aren’t necessarily enforcing them or even benefiting from them. If women can be part of the patriarchy, it’s not a patriarchy. It’s a set of assholes.

            You’ve just labeled social pressures you dislike to be male in nature. I’m not sure why.

          • Asaryu

            So, to compare jobs in the same industry: Education. A male gets an IT job which requires 1 year of study on top of his high school diploma. A woman gets a librarian job, which is a professional position mandatory for schools requiring at least 5 years university education. He gets paid more than her. Why? The IT guy isn’t more necessary to the school. His education isn’t greater. But he is in a male-oriented profession in which he feels that he has greater bargaining power. He has been taught from an early age that he is entitled to ask for what he wants, and so he is more likely to ask for more money than he is currently earning and he is more likely to get it. She, on the other hand, has been brought up to think of others before herself, like a good girl. She has been taught that she is not entitled to ask for what she wants. She has been taught to be conciliatory and to avoid conflict. She is less likely to ask for more money for her job, even though the workplace is mandated to have someone in her position. She will not earn as much as him. This is gender roles hurting women as the things we teach little girls are embedded into the practices of adult women.

            I’m not suggesting that there’s some secret society of men planning the economy, but that businesspeople, as a long male-dominated set of professions, sees greater value in the skills and behaviours associated with masculinity (agression, ruthlessness, etc) and that, in a capitalist society, these behaviours will be rewarded in terms of currency.

            My experience doesn’t represent the whole human experience, no. But it is a greater set of experiences and evidence than you are bringing to the table. I stand by it and I do not need to justify it to someone who is not willing to refute it adequately.

            I think in one of my examples I even indicated that a woman was exhibiting sexist behaviour, so I’ve already inherently refuted the idea that patriarchy is deliberately and intentionally supported only by men for men. I am not implying that there are secret mens meetings where they discuss the shiny new ways they are going to oppress women this week. That would be stupid. As stupid as the idea that for a patriarchy to exist that all men must benefit from it. It is more that the patriarchy exists and it has certain effects. Some of these effects involve men having a limited scope of identities. Some of these effects involve women having fewer practicable rights. These things are not specifically mens fault and I don’t think I ever said thy were. I don’t know who’s writing you’re reading, but it seems that it was wilfully not mine.

          • #confuzzled

            A woman can get an IT job, and a man can be a librarian. Your observation of sexism is actually observation of different jobs paying different amounts, and could be extended to any comparison between two jobs.

            “he is in a male-oriented profession in which he feels that he has greater bargaining power.”

            He DOES have greater bargaining power, because his job actually is in lower supply, like an engineer.

            There’s nothing about being a man that implies you’ll be taught that way, and there’s nothing about being a woman that implies you’ll be taught that way either. Those aren’t gender roles; those are roles.

            Just because you associate aggression and ruthlessness with masculinity doesn’t change the fact that those are practical traits for businesspeople and that’s still okay.

            I don’t have to bring experiences to the table, because personal experiences logically establish nothing about the world. You’re free to assume they do, of course.

            If the patriarchy isn’t male, then why is it called the patriarchy (rule of the father) and not just “a set of assholes”?

          • glorybug

            Um, last time I checked, there were tons more IT-techs and IT jobs than there are librarians or librarian jobs.So, no, IT doesn’t pay more because the job is in lower supply. And, it’s nothing like an engineer.

            The only librarian I know who is male complains about how little librarians make, even though it’s mandatory that the schools have one. On the other hand, there’s no mandate that there have to be sports coaches, and they certainly don’t need much ‘education’… yet, they pay massively higher — when they aren’t even required. He is smart enough to see that perceived male and female jobs pay differently.

          • #confuzzled

            If there’s lots of IT jobs, then there’s lots of demand for IT people. Who, again, aren’t necessarily male.

            Coaches are actually among the best-paid state employees, because we as a society support that kind of thing and it brings money and prestige to individual schools. Coaches aren’t necessarily male, either.

            Showing a correlation between males and high-paying jobs in no way implies sexism, because correlation doesn’t necessarily equal causation.

          • glorybug

            Why are you even on this page, other than the fact that you are in massively serious denial, and are defensive about it.

            The fact that you have wasted everyone’s time on a supportive page written by a man — to argue about and try to make yourself somehow sound smarter than him says a lot.

            Why don’t you write your own blog, have it explode on social media, and have a ton on people like and comment on it? Then, you can be the star. Oh, that’s right. You really have nothing positive to say, your disdain for women in general is obvious, and you are an entitled and whiney brat that wouldn’t be able to find any followers of your own.

            Me, me, me. It’s the mantra of anti-feminists who can’t stand being the center of attention 24/7. But, what about men? What about me, me, me?

          • #confuzzled

            I’m interested in the subject? Shoot me.

            I don’t see how the author’s gender factors into this, but I have no idea whether I’m smarter than he is.

            Nothing positive to say? Why, it’s almost like I disagree. I have no feelings about any demographic “in general”; in fact I think the very notion of thinking of a demographic that way is absurd.

            Forgive me if i’m wrong, but I actually think you’re the one who seems interested in talking about me at the moment.

          • Asaryu

            Dude… it’s like you’re being wilfully ignorant about how language changes over time. The literal translation of word means very little when you take into account it’s current usage.

            Faggot technically means “a bundle of sticks”, which isn’t inherently insulting. I don’t see people calling that effeminate guy a bundle of sticks. They call him a faggot because it has an accepted usage that has evolved since the word started being used.

            So, in feminist theory (which, you may recall, is what you’re attempting to critique), patriarchy refers to social systems in which power is primarily held by adult men and which is unjust and oppressive to women. You can justify male privilege as “earned” as much as you like, but it is still the case that men hold a privileged position in politics, business and religion and that puts these men in positions where they are able to legislate, discuss and moralise a woman’s body without allowing her voice to be heard on an equal footing.

            Yes, it is technically and theoretically possible for a woman to hold high government positions or to be on the board of large companies, however in practice this is rarely the case because we live in a society where the attributes of women are not valued in the same way and to the same extent. I assert it is because these attributes have not been traditionally held to be valued in places of power due to those places being historically male and because change to the status-quo takes a long time to achieve. I also assert that women are not taught the skills associated with wielding power in the same default manner that men are. I have extensive research and critical theory to back me up and if you like I can find you some resources.

            Unfortunately, I doubt you’ll read them because it may challenge your notion that these hysterical women are whining about life not being fair when they should just fundamentally change who they are in order to be treated as equals by society and that it’s not mens fault (though I never said it was mens fault, simply the fault of a legacy of mistreatment of women that has not fully left the so-called democratic society in which we live) that women won’t just go out and be just like men and compete directly with men in an environment made physically an culturally hostile towards women. It’s women’s fault they aren’t in positions of power because they never pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and took those positions from the men who act as gatekeepers for those possitions.

            Also, your assertion that there are fewer Information Technology workers than information professionals is ludicrous and the statistics would argue otherwise.

          • #confuzzled

            “patriarchy refers to social systems in which power is primarily held by adult men and which is unjust and oppressive to women”

            That sounds very male to me? Though “primarily” is subjective; I would suggest changing that to “often”.

            I sure don’t hold a privileged position in politics, business, or religion, despite being a man. You seem to be taking issue with males simply being in positions of power?

            Your definition of “attributes of women” is stereotypical and asburd. There is no necessary attribute of a woman beyond female self-identification. Women are not NECESSARILY taught the same skills as men OFTEN are, but they can be, and are sometimes.

            “they should just fundamentally change who they are in order to be treated as equals by society”

            If what these individuals are happens to be incompetent in business, they can’t expect to be treated as equals in business. However, women aren’t necessarily incompetent at business, so that’s all cool and stuff.

            “there are fewer Information Technology workers than information professionals”
            Okay. But it’s still totally plausible that demand for IT people outstrips supply to a greater degree.

          • Asaryu

            I said primarily held by men, I didn’t say all men hold positions of power over women. There aren’t enough positions of power for that to be true. I am not taking issue with men being in positions of power, I’m simply saying that it happens and that as a result women often don’t get a say in matters that concern them.

            I know that “attributes of women” is stereotypical and absurd. That’s the point. It is absurd that women are expected to be nurturers and carers. I agree, but it is still a fundamental expectation that women will behave this way and we are given pause when women don’t behave in these ways.

            I think you’re mistaking the notion that something CAN happen with the notion that something DOES happen. Yes, women CAN be taught traditionally male-oriented skills, attributes and mindsets, however it does not mean that they are, which places them at a distinct disadvantage in a society that values these skills that women are being herded away from.

            I’m not saying parents do this on purpose. I am saying it is a discourse that is difficult to avoid as it is subtle and something we operate within and have come to accept as a standard way of behaving around children.

            That said (and acknowledging that many women have been brought up to be nurturers), professions dominated by women are often paid less than professions dominated by men. Not because their work isn’t as important but because the work of nurturing isn’t valued as highly. Teachers, nurses etcetera… they are nurturing roles that are vital to the function of society, however the value that we attribute to these jobs is lower than that of less vital jobs that require skills that are more likely to be fostered in male children.

            Fundamentally I think we agree on several points. I just think that we disagree on the ways those things actually affect the power structures that we operate within.

          • #confuzzled

            “primarily held by men,”

            Again, primary is subjective, which isn’t smart if fighting the patriarchy is to be a cause with objective goals.

            “women often don’t get a say in matters that concern them.”

            This applies to men as well. It’s almost like some people, to some degree, decide what happens to other people.

            “I know that “attributes of women” is stereotypical and absurd.”

            Then you must agree that discriminating in favor of attributes you think of as “male” isn’t oppressive to women.

            “we are given pause when women don’t behave in these ways.”

            Not necessarily. In fact sometimes it’s the opposite.

            “women are being herded away from”

            Not all women, and some men are herded away from these skills. Woah, it’s almost like there’s social pressures to take certain lines of work sometimes.

            “Teachers, nurses etcetera… they are nurturing roles that are vital to the function of society”

            According to many, not as vital as football team coaches. That’s okay.

          • jenny

            Now that u have thoroughly humiliated yourself , luld do well to take your leave. Your arguments are convoluted, irrational, myopic and entirely without merit. Can u not see that you are outmatched by your opponents, and not only in terms of your rhetorical disability?

          • edtastic

            “But why are the jobs that women tend to have paid less? Is it because our work is worth less? Our time is worth less? Our expertise is worth less? ”

            You are tossing out these straw man conspiracy theories instead of facing the reality that women are prioritizing something other than maximizing their pay in choosing these jobs. The truth is wage gaps vanish if women don’t have children which means that the real reason for them. These conspiracy theories are a means of shifting blame onto men whenever possible.

            ” I don’t hear too many men talking about wanting more women in their workplace to get fresh perspectives and new ideas”

            Why would they if they think women are equal? They grew up with women and work with them already. Being female doesn’t make you magic.

            “. We want men for the fact that they are men and we celebrate their difference and what they have to offer.”

            What they have to offer isn’t a penis, it’s their brain or physical ability to perform the required task. This equality thing isn’t about relishing in outdated gender stereotypes.

            “You can’t tell me that when I worked as 2nd in charge position for a company and was still expected to get the tea for the boys that I had an equal power relationship with men.”

            People ask me to get stuff all the time because I’m a nice guy who rarely says no when asked. When others are asked they often refuse. Am I to now assume this is because of my genitals? You make a huge deal out of petty crap and expect to be taken seriously as a person. There are bigger fish to fry and it’s not the emotional trauma of being asked to get tea. If men associate in their mind women whining profusely about inane crap they may just as soon avoid dealing with women. You stood up for yourself and that’s fine. It’s what we’d expect a man to do.

            ” I was explicitly told that I was not to take the details of women because they “couldn’t carry that kind of weight” DESPITE the fact that when we were busy I myself would go out and load and unload trucks with the same containers.”

            Men on average have 40-60% more upper body strength than women so you take a man showing concern for women and make him out to be a sexist oppressor for what? At least pick some difference that isn’t innate to our gender dimorphism to fret about.

            “Or when I used to work as a library assistant and I was sent as a messenger to get the boys to go move furniture.”

            Same stuff…

            “You feel compelled to look after us as though without your male help we are unable to look after ourselves.”

            Trust me when men stop caring about women it won’t be pleasant for either sex so stop pushing them down that road. You can see from your examples how petty these issues are and it’s really not worth it. Carrying heavy stuff is the least men can do and it makes them feel needed. You should respect that instead of using it as an excuse to complain. Men’s deference towards helping women shows up naturally and should be encouraged along with the same traits in women. That’s how you ended up getting tea and the men were sent to lift heavy crap.

            “It is foolish to mistake this for compassion. Compassion is something you feel for an equal. Compassion is something you can feel for a man. Pity is what you describe feeling for a woman.”

            No it’s foolish to assume that “pity” is something you’d rather do without because without it men could care less about women’s issues. You shun the very means feminists have been using to get compliance from men and force men to care ever less about women. What men feel for men is indifference that can be made into respect if he pulls his weight on the team. They may even pity a man but it’s nothing like wanting to help a women do something a man is physically better equipped to do. A man might help a old man lift something heavy but that old man feels like crap for being weak. A women isn’t carrying that role burden because she was born weaker and smaller and isn’t reflecting on lost ability. Of course women can do lots of stuff and over time men are less interested in helping women do things. The men feel less needed and less happy. Women feel men’s indifference and are less happy. Nobody is winning here.

            “In one moment you say that feminists hate the patriarchy and blame it and in the next you say that feminists use the patriarchy for their own gain.”

            The neurotic posturing of feminists comes right out of the internal contradictions it’s built on.It runs to simplistic extremes for propagandist reasons rather than appreciating the complex nuances in human relationships. The war on patriarchy turns into a war on men’s self esteem, male power, male roles, and male identity all while systematically exploiting all of that to get men to do what feminists want.

            It’s a insidious and manipulative process which has come to have little to do with equality and more about chronically insecure women looking for a scapegoat for their problems. While seeking absolute and unaccountable freedom for themselves and control over men in the same way male chauvinist did with women. This is why we get cherry picked stats that show the suffering of women while men’s problems are ignored. The status of victim itself is a source of power. Where overt power is available it’s then used to directly promote the interest of women without regard for men.

            That’s not equality but it is what men are resisting. Those men who don’t understand what’s going on have a desire to retreat to familiar traditional norms but most can pick off the few extreme feminist ideas they don’t like even if they are based on outdated stereotypes.

            ” I am belittled and mocked for my personality traits that are masculine. Possibly not as much as a man might be mocked for showing feminine traits”

            That’s because we don’t deal with male issues. They are a side story that’s generally ignored by the culture which built around men showing deference towards women. Since feminists dismantled the aspects of the culture where women show deference towards men the expectation of compassion is not mutual.

            ” I have been accused of being a slut and a whore for the love I have shown. ”

            You mean sex right? The gate keeping role women have or had came with the sexual power women had or have. It was women who pushed “slut” to discourage loose women that lowered the value of their sexual access which was a key source of personal power for women. Loose women were also a threat to their long term relationships. Men held such women in low regard because they were presumed to be disloyal and men would be uncertain of their paternity or otherwise lose respect if other men could easily have their women. Since men invested a great deal in their relationships (like women) that was a problem.

            This stuff is petty and it comes down to you feeling entitled to a way too much. I couldn’t even make an accounting of all the slights some how related to being male in my life because its not important and people wouldn’t even care. There is no feminist movement for me to go and dump my feelings of being slighted because men would find it degrading to emote on such a child like level. That kind of weakness isn’t respected for good reason. It doesn’t lead anywhere we want to go.

            There are things men find worth talking about but it’s real pain not nitpicking over gender petty slights like women trying to establish social hierarchy using subtle forms of social aggression. Perhaps that’s why so much time has been spent lecturing men on subtle things even though in men’s lives this kind of discourse seems pointless.

            “Let’s tear down the patriarchy together.”

            No because I don’t even think we live in one. We live in what was a patriarchy but is now something very different. More importantly those doing the tearing down are mostly women using the cause to get their way with men rather than help both sexes achieve equitable relations. What’s fair for men is defined by default as whatever is best for women.

            “What do you risk to say that mens needs are equal to womens?”

            Being attacked by feminists and non feminists alike as a man hater ,mocked for not being a “real man”, treated as a pariah, banned from lots of forums, and of course being told I can’t get a women. Feminists have established a cultural context that is so hostile to men that men can’t even talk about equality on their own terms. Many of us have had enough and we’re rapidly growing in number.

            ” then the only people you’re standing against are the only people who care about your needs”

            That’s rich. Feminists care about women not men and men have to fight them to get them to care about men. I’m fighting the source of the problem which is antipathy towards men being advanced by feminists who are now reduced to petty issues like getting Tea for their boss.

            I’d much rather dismantle feminine and focus on equality or see feminism reformed to be what it promised. We don’t use a racialism movement to fight for racial equality and we sure don’t need one for gender considering the sexes naturally like each other.

          • KrisDStar

            Wrong yet again.
            Teaching used to pay much more compared to what it pays now. Now women are the majority of teachers, and the pay has come down.
            Same is true with almost every profession. As more women enter the market, the pay scale is lowered. The more men leave the field, the further the pay scale drops.
            While the field is full of men, it pays well. When it is tipped over into more women in the field, the pay stagnantes, and the women wind up with less.

          • edtastic

            So you chose the conspiracy theory over more logical explanations like the job market being flooded with workers (women moving into the workforce) who are willing to work for less thus discouraging higher wage(men) workers who seek employment elsewhere amid dropping incomes. The reverse is also true. If wages go up more males are attracted to jobs such as nursing that has had a steady increase in male participation along with wages. The only think you established was a trend of men following the money which is something we already knew along with women placing a lower priority on money in job selection.

            I can think for myself which is a huge advantage I have over you in these debates.

          • KrisDStar

            That whole explanation was sexist.
            Men care about money. Women don’t. That’s your reason?

            Women weren’t “willing” to work for less. They had to. There is a difference. Women still aren’t willing to work for less, yet they still get paid less, for doing the same work that men are doing.

            Great job at mansplaining, though.
            Keep on coming with that sexist drivel.

            Advantage in these debates? Uh, no. You have nothing but sexist comments. If you see that as an advantage, then the problem with society is you.

          • KrisDStar

            Except that most states are Right to Work states and women can no longer prove discrimination.
            Your entire argument is bunk.
            If the pay gap is tiny, then I guess you wouldn’t mind if the reverse was true. Go to your employer, and tell him to pay you less than what the lowest paid female employee is paid.
            It doesn’t matter that it is less, right? If it doesn’t matter, and women shouldn’t care, then you shouldn’t have an issue with being paid less.

          • #confuzzled

            Does any given man have more power than any given woman? No? Then some men have more power than some women, and vice versa. Men do not have more power than women. That’s absurd.

            As to the pay gap, that probably has nothing to do with all the female housewives making zero dollars a year.

          • Asaryu

            Over there is the point… it seems you missed it.

          • #confuzzled

            However, it doesn’t matter where you look; you won’t find backing for your claims.

          • KrisDStar

            You are completely in the wrong forum. This is the one for adults who know what they are talking about.
            Men as a sex, have more power than women, as a sex. This is true throughout the vast majority of history.
            Do some research, then come back.

          • #confuzzled

            Whatever power a gender might have isn’t very useful, because genders can’t have goals.

          • KrisDStar

            The people who are of that sex, do have goals, and do make collective decisions.
            Gender is not the same as sex.
            Try again.

          • #confuzzled

            Sexes don’t make decisions on a collective level either, and thus can’t use their power for the same reasons.

            Men as a whole have never made a decision in human history, and it shows no signs of happening in the future.

            I agree that individuals do have goals and get together and make decisions sometimes. What does this have to do with the usability of the power of men as a sex?

          • KrisDStar

            Actually, the person who is the sex, does make the decision. Men have made decisions that put those with a penis in a position of power above those without a penis.

            Men as a whole have made the vast majority of decisions in history, as they have been the rulers of society for the vast majority of time.

            You obviously are trying to argue above your knowledge base.

          • #confuzzled

            “Men have made decisions that put those with a penis in a position of power above those without a penis.”

            Women have done that as well, and both sexes have made decisions to put people without penises in positions of power of people with.

            I’m still waiting for you to logically establish some higher sex truth based on these facts?

            “Men as a whole have made the vast majority of decisions”

            Are you referring to the collective body of every decision a man has made, as a proportion of every decision a man hasn’t made? What would that logically establish about all men, or even men in general?

          • KrisDStar

            Maybe you need to retake a history class before you try to join this discussion.
            Women haven’t used their position of power to systematically oppress, repress, and subjugate men. The reverse is true.

          • #confuzzled


            How did one as educated as you discover something like that? You must have done some kind of pan-temporal census.

          • KrisDStar

            Maybe you forgot to crack open those history books in college – I didn’t.

          • #confuzzled

            I actually just don’t remember any historians that recorded every incident of sex-based discrimination in human history.

            I’m sure you can enlighten me. Perhaps Herodotus?

          • KrisDStar

            Nobody has to include every minute instance. The cultural and social trend is more than enough.
            Women don’t have to explain or defend feminism to you.

          • Anon

            Woah, woah, woah.

            Never once did I say that I was against the Women’s Rights Movement. I am very in favor and agree with everything you’ve said.

            Women do have less power. They are oppressed. I never argued against that. I merely agreed with a few points of the poster I replied to earlier about how combative many Feminists are towards men when we need to work together.

            I’m not here to complain. I’m not here to challenge your stances. I’m not here to belittle the Feminist Movement. I’m not here to combat you. I’m not here to argue with you. I’m here to let you know that I want to help, but it’s hard to when there are tons of comments that are completely shutting men down.

            I agree that this is a petty discussion about something that may not matter in regards to what the article is showing. I just want to shed light on a small issue that could help the Feminist movement in the long run. We need to work together, rather than butt heads.

          • edtastic

            “And sure, some MRAs are total asshats that think Feminism is a joke and men’s problems are just as high on the list as women’s.”

            Their problems are equal and not seeing that comes from internalized gender bias which preferences compassion for women over that of men which is a problem for both sexes. It really doesn’t take much effort to notice how many men are hurting around us but most are not going to tell us the way feminists would prefer they do with long tear jerking stories about their pain. Showing compassion for men is stepping outside the patriarchal box and we don’t do enough of that.

            The mocking and derision of men who care about men needs to stop. I’m not against women’s activism but the contempt for men in it needs to go.

          • Asaryu

            I’m not jeering. Like I said: “I don’t agree that the comments around mens rights should be combative”.

            Perhaps I should have been clearer in my language, but I meant that I don’t agree with comments that are combative against men.

            To continue the metaphor and explain some of the combative elements in comments (explain, not excuse), the person bleeding out is probably showing exasperation as she has been waiting in triage for hours while stubbed toe after stubbed toe goes ahead of her in line. When she jeers at him for his inferior wound, it’s not him specifically she is angry at, but a system that would treat his bruise with greater efficiency and dedication than it would attend her far more serious wounds.

            It’s not men we’re angry at. It’s particular men who loudly declare that women should not be in the waiting room while we bleed out onto the carpet when our inadequate bandages soak through and they loudly demand that their boo-boos be kissed better.

          • glorybug

            I have read all of the comments in this blog thread, and have not seen any that say “Yeah, fuck men and their rights. They are useless and dumb”. Not one. Not even any that are similar.

            There is a huge difference between exaggeration and outright lying to suit your purpose.

            It never fails to amaze me that men who are threatened by feminism never realize that the majority of feminist women also have sons, whom they would like to see raised in a healthy manner, without paternalistic societal pressures on them, either.

          • ElishaC

            If you can’t see that men and women face exactly the same adversary – patriarchy – then you need to educate yourself.

          • Anon

            Thanatos, the Men’s Rights Movement is not synonymous with people who think that men’s rights are important. I am a strident feminist who, as a man, is entirely for men’s rights.

            The puzzle piece that is missing is what no one has actually said, which is that the MRM is an aggressive, often misogynist entity that tends to be more anti-feminist than pro-men (two things that are NOT synonymous in the slightest.)


          • Thanatos

            Much in the same way as feminism was viewed for quite some time. Give it some time to find its identity. I would hope that the vocal minority will be drowned out by rationality and an honest discussion. I may be wrong, but slapping everyone with the same brush certainly isn’t going to help change that image.

          • shabangcohen

            This is not because feminists are valuing their own rights more than men’s. They are against “Men’s Rights” because the term “Men’s Rights” is usually used by sexists as an excuse for misogyny. Of course men’s rights are equally important, and it is a shame that men have to face various stereotypes & assumptions. However, “Men’s Rights” may as well be called “Women’s Oppression Rights”; this movement is illegitimate and offensive, and is hence discredited with quotation marks in the original comment.

          • ModVAVet

            NO, THANATOS. The Men’s Rights movement is primarily composed of assholes of the type that post over at avoiceformen.com. They routinely make the same arguments YOU are making while laughing it up that some woman got raped while being dressed too provocatively. Your fake-assed concern trolling shouldn’t be fooling anyone here. Feminism works on trying to fix the EXACT PROBLEMS you’re complaining about. Your ‘Men’s Rights’ movement is right up there with people wanting a ‘White History Month’. LEARN THE GODDAMNED HISTORICAL CONTEXT FOR WHAT YOU’RE COMPLAINING ABOUT.

          • Thanatos

            While I appreciate your presumptions and assault on my character, I think I’ve been pretty clear on my personal stance in my comments.What you’re doing is assigning me characteristics you’ve predetermined by your interpretation of a title. I would hope that you would see this is the same concept as someone assuming any feminist hates men. It is not ‘my’ Men’s Rights movement, it’s my personal advocacy that the rights of men should not be secondary to the rights of women. Should we fight for equal rights for women? Absolutely. But I don’t think that needs to come at the expense of pretending that men don’t face their own challenges places on them by the societal paradigm we live in. I’ve had a lot of replies to my comments pointing out that this can all be blamed on our patriarchal foundations (which no doubt has had a great influence on our culture) but why is everyone so focused on placing blame? Regardless of how we got here, I would hope that we could work together as a group of like-minded individuals to address the issues at hand. I would encourage you to try to see past the vocal minority in any group and try to work with practicality. If I were to come here with no knowledge of feminism, I would be very put off by the angry, closed-minded, militant tones plastered all over the comment board. However, I do recognize that behind the pettiness and knee-jerk commenting are mostly similarly minded people seeking the same things I am. Most of my comments are written in the hopes of providing perspective and ideally banding people together in spite of the labels we so readily throw around.

          • glorybug

            Me, me, me, me, me.

            I have an idea. Get your own blog, and then write something brilliant that lots of people like.

            The problem really is that incessant need to be center of attention, even on other people’s blogs, about topics such as feminism, which you apparently know nothing about.

          • Thanatos

            Yet another attack. I made a comment and followed the discussion to follow. There is a discussion worth having here and if you should choose to join in rather than seek argument through belittling those you disagree with, I’d be more than happy to listen.

          • ModVAVet

            Well, in all honesty, those guys ARE the majority within the organized Men’s Rights movement. It’s a title that already carries a huge set of baggage. You choosing to give yourself that particular label doesn’t change or help that fact, and, rightly or not, can and will put you right in with that crowd in the minds of anyone who knows that they exist.. To put things in perspective for you, too, the ‘blame’ thing with patriarchy causing the problems you’re talking about in family courts isn’t useless squabbling- the cause of the problems you’re complaining about have been identified already, and feminism has been working for a long time to FIX those problems. I’ve already seen several posts here that have tried pointing that out, but you seem happy to ignore them, and are acting like feminism addresses solely the grievances of women. On that same note, you’ve come into a conversation about feminism and tried to make it about something else, using language that strongly appears to be derailing and concern trolling tactics. If you’re truly concerned about the problems you’ve identified, I’m wondering why you haven’t actually become a feminist yet?

          • ModVAVet

            TL;DR- You can’t fix the problems without addressing the cause of those problems, and feminists are working on that for you.

          • Guest

            TL;DR- You can’t fix those problems without addressing the cause of those problems, and feminists are working on that for you.

          • edtastic

            This article is filed with decades old arguments they cold easily refute so I suggest you look elsewhere for you game changer. It’s basically says women have stuff they don’t like about society so until they are absolutely satisfied men must do whatever they want. That’s not a realistic case for equality because men could easily come up with their own wish list as a rational for MRA’s and they have.

          • KrisDStar

            Nope. Men’s Right activists want special rights, not equal rights.

          • Jeff Middel

            The conversation has evolved beyond the article alone. If you follow it from the beginning you can see how.

        • happydog


          • Jeff Middel

            When discussing rationally is considered trolling, then perhaps you are the troll. Unfortunately this passed the supposed “moderation.” What you likely mean to say is, “if you disagree with the majority on here, you’re a troll.” Just say what you really mean.

          • Craig Dennyson

            I mean, “You’re a troll.” You’re here to start shit. That’s what trolls do. Capiche?

          • Jeff Middel

            And I don’t think most people on here are either doing that or trying to do that. To discuss how feminism as a popular front as changed from the blog’s understanding of what feminism is does not seem to be trolling. I and others are discussing rationally. What are you doing?
            Are you using more than one account to comment here?

        • phloxe

          I think you’re missing the point here. This article is only one side of the coin, it’s discussing the faults in criticisms of feminism. In no way is he promoting female superiority, he’s merely pointing out flaws in how people perceive this view. When discussing one side of the equality world view, one should not have to reciprocate it for the other side in question each time we make a statement. Just because he makes a point of defending one side does not mean he has to go and make another defensive statement for the other side (just to make it equal). The fact of the matter is he’s defending the side that gets the most criticism (rightfully so in many regards, I find contemporary feminists don’t really know what they’re fighting for, but that’s not the point). Men’s rights have less quirks and issues, so those things tend to be undermined (it’s not fair, but it’ll come with time).

          • Thanatos

            I appreciate what you’re saying here, but my comment was directed at his endorsement of a comment that was not only dismissive of ‘Men’s Rights’ but combative. The article itself, while not my favorite style of writing, did do its job in getting the point across. I was just disappointed to find the author so ready to abandon the the notion of actual equality through his endorsement.

        • Kevin

          What’s humorous here is that whenever “straight white males” are forced to consider narrowing the socio-economic gaps, then there is always the cry, or similar cry of “you’re treading on my rights in return.” B.S., period. What the problem is, is that for the first time in the history of this country–you’re being forced to compete. Ain’t that a bitch. Faced with this new found competition, you start to hear whimperings of “if you do what we did, you’re no better than we are”. What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander. Stop whining and continue to compete, you still have the advantage in this country. If you’re under performing, or otherwise disadvantaged, that is your problem. You’ve had quite the head start.

          • Thanatos

            Isn’t treading on ones rights the problem we’re trying to rectify in the first place? Or are you suggesting that as long as you’ve had to fight for equality, it’s ok to put others under that same boot? What you’re showing here is exactly where I have a problem. I have no issue with bettering the situation for women. I have a problem with any agenda when it switches from bettering something, to belittling something else. We should always be striving for better, for everyone.

    • Jeff Middel

      MRA’s are generally interested in equal rights. This satire is using a bit of a dated conversation of Feminism. Feminism today looks a lot different from what it used and isn’t fighting battles of equality of outcome or equality of opportunity any more. Many contemporary feminists would say that “a man can’t be a feminist” and that “women can’t be sexist”. If half the population can’t even be sexist I think we can see there is an imbalance of opportunity and/or outcome.

      • “Feminism today looks a lot different from what it used and isn’t fighting battles of equality of outcome or equality of opportunity any more.”

        Bro, I dont’t know what feminism you’re seeing, but the large majority of feminists I know are primarily concerned with equality and justice – not only for women, but for anyone who is oppressed.

        • Jeff Middel

          I’ve referenced a few times in response to this blog the disparity in universities (such as affirmative action sanctioned by the government through additional funding to Canadian universities), redefinition of terms (such as sexism), and other dictates by contemporary or “new” feminism.

          • Jenn Baerg

            There is no Affirmative Action in Canadian universities, there is employment equity for hiring. You cannot cite a 1985 article that is referencing employment in academia as the same thing as reflective undergraduate enrolment.

          • Jeff Middel

            York University publishes their preferential application for female and minority students in their programs, including education which is by far dominated by female applicants as well as women in the profession(s).
            Two up votes don’t make your post true. Calling it something other than affirmative action is still affirmative action.

          • Jenn Baerg

            FOR JOBS not for the enrolment of students which is what the discussion was but as per usual MRA tactics you’re derailing. You’ve posted this and it is not stating as you think it says. You think it states that they preferentially fill their student application process with females. However it states that they are will hire the qualified teacher without regard to their sex. Furthermore how is AA or Employment equity a threat to you if you are the qualified candidate? Unless you’re not and because you’re a man you feel entitled to that position.

          • Johann

            The first time jobs was mentioned in this entire chain was your post. Regardless:

            AA is a threat to men because a man who is completely equal in every academic area with a female has less chance to get chosen if the university has an AA program such as that mentioned above. For the “qualified” candidate it doesn’t matter (by definition they are not in contention for a slot because they already have it), but then again, you were trying to skip around the facts I just pointed out by asking a skewed question.

            Let me be clear: I’m not throwing some pity-party. I got into university on my own merits and wouldn’t have it any other way; once the scales tip in the other direction as they have, though, it is in society’s best interest to stop preferring one group, as it relegates potentially more intelligent people to worse schools than they deserve through their effort and academic record to get into.

          • Amanda Russo

            Just because you are a man does not mean you are more qualified.

            Having a penis and white skin does not mean you posses superior intelligence.

            I’m tired of this assumption that women and minorities only get into university because of AA. We are not inferior to you.

          • Jeff Middel

            And you should be offended that AA is still active if everyone is competing for the job. The most qualified should get the job and AA undermines that. As long as AA is in effect there will be the shadow of doubt hanging over applicants since the most qualified should get the job regardless of differences in race, gender, religion, etc. You should be fighting the real enemy which is affirmative action and anything that attempts to penalize people today for imbalances of yesterday. (don’t forget to down vote!)

          • edtastic

            If not for AA many Universities would have 80% female student populations. It’s being used for males in higher education A LOT!

          • edtastic

            White women are the primary beneficiaries of Affirmative action but not so surprisingly most people resent it for helping African Americans. The old keep it in the family mentality seems to still be at play here.

          • #confuzzled

            That “equity” resulted in employers required to prefer women over men based on gender.

            If that’s not institutionalized sexism, I don’t know what is. You’re supposed to hire people based on merit, not based on what society thinks demographic balances should be.

          • Jenn Baerg

            Since it wasn’t clear before the purpose for this employment policy is to ensure that no person, man or women, cis or trans, able bodied or alternatively abled or their race could be used to determined if they are qualified and instead they are hired on their merits. I understand that the idea that someone who isn’t a white middle class male could be equality qualified is a concept beyond your understanding, and that may be why you’re finding you and your fellow MRA’s are struggling to be hired. Failure to understand basic concepts is a serious hiring hindrance.

          • #confuzzled

            If that were the case, nothing beyond basically the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would be required, except that you’d extend it to those groups as well.

            However, the issue here isn’t freedom from discrimination, it’s whether increasing female representation (or representation of any other demographic) should be a government goal.

            There’s nothing about being a white middle class male to make you more or less capable at any job.

        • Lorenzo

          Micah, quit calling men ‘bros’. Shit. Like we’re keg standing 24/7.

      • Jeff Middel

        Down-voting the facts on here? Wow. I just realized that this is a religious blog.

        And here is a feminist blog site that refers to a “new and improved” definition of sexism:

        I work in an industry and company that is completely dominated by women at every level, but “women can’t be sexist”?

        • EM

          I think what people have issue with is the categorization as “feminism” as harmful, and the point most people here are trying to make (as I see it), is that majority of feminists want equality, if it were here, we women would not be feeling the sting. I embrace any commentary I find that advocates for men’s rights, health and wellbeing being equal to that of women, but I have yet to find any situation where such a disparity exists that favors women OVER men, except perhaps in industries considered women’s domain such as childcare (people are suspicious of the Manny – Male Nanny). I really just haven’t seen much of it.

          • Caitlin

            While agree with most of this comment, there were two things said earlier that are definitely disparities favoring women over men and that’s custody battles and alimony payments. These things are derived from inherent sexism, however. Women are seen as natural caretakers and automatically assumed as better parents than men so they are given undue favor by the system. Same with alimony, women are seen as meant to take on a domestic role and shouldn’t work outside the home unless it’s necessary and therefore need part of the ex-spouse’s income. These things are based on dated gender roles and should be changed so both genders have an equal chance (or in the case of alimony, should probably just be abolished or modified to a severe degree). There are also domestic violence cases where men who are abused by women have a loooot harder time proving it and are shamed by society for even admitting it, which is pretty horrible. If MRAs would spend more time fighting for those things, and do so with the end goal being equality, then they’d have a lot more credibility. Instead they are fighting against the Violence Against Women Act, against victims of rape (because they think they are all liars), etc. Really, the men that consider themselves feminists are truly the male rights activists because feminism is fighting for equality in all the things I’ve said in this post. Actual MRAs are the dregs of the human race that want to hold on tight to the privileges they are afforded now at the expense of women.

      • Sara

        Women can be sexist. And men can be feminist. There’s a female feminist’s viewpoint. But the facts are that things are still not equal for women, as this article points out. Men should have rights too, but for the most part, they already have them.

        • Jeff Middel

          And I’m pointing out that many people have a very different perspective of what feminism means. Clearly there are different understandings and I’m showing that contemporary feminism is not necessarily interested in equality. I did not make up the “women can’t be sexist” comment (see below where I posted a link). Women already have all the rights. They are guaranteed in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. There is still disparity in many fields of employment just as there is disrespect aimed in both directions. The blog points at one form of disrespect (that which is aimed at women by men). It ignores the disrespect that is aimed at men by women and which is common in the popular media (such as TV commercials, shows and movies).

          Men do have rights. Women do have rights. Feminism can’t fight for rights already in existence.
          We should all be working towards shifting negative gender/sex attitudes.

          • guest

            Rights on paper are a far cry for rights in reality.. please dont be so naive.

          • cat

            Females do not hold equal rights, and implying such is uninformed. An example of this is the systemic legislation of female reproductive health. Do you recall the “legitimate rape” conversation this last election? As a male these may have seemed like anomalous instances of insensitivity, but they are in fact examples of an ongoing and systemic minimization of female equality that is ongoing and at every level.

          • Lorenzo

            That comment was stated and supported by a slice of men. Not the whole darn pie!

          • edtastic

            You are talking about a abortion right men don’t have so it doesn’t even fit into a discussion of equal rights.

            Women have had equal rights for a long time now and those who say they don’t are not being honest.

          • #confuzzled

            Calling abortion a women’s right is blurring the issue, as the legal debate is over what rights a fetus should have. Just because a political figure made a comment doesn’t mean it reflects how society thinks.

            More importantly, though, it’s cisnormative to think of it that way. There are men who can get pregnant perfectly healthily, and women who cannot. Reproductive organs have no implications over whether one is male or female.

            If you want to argue that people with functioning female reproductive systems aren’t allowed to have complete/sufficient abortion freedom based on their vaginas, you’ve kind of missed the point; those are the only people who can even have abortions in the first place.

          • ElishaC

            The DEFINITION of feminism is the pursuit of equality. So those people you know who call themselves feminists, but aren’t interested in equality? Aren’t feminists.

          • Jeff Middel

            When an advocacy group says that “women can’t be sexist” is that equal? Doesn’t sound like it. Sounds like one standard for one group, and another standard for another and the difference is the sex they were born with.

        • Lorenzo

          Matter of fact, anyone can be what they want. Thanks, Sara!

        • Jeff Middel

          And yet the sources I have sited demonstrate that there is a large feminist contingency that differs in their perspective – something I am trying to bring to people’s attention. There is a stark contrast between what people perceive as feminism and what feminism has become and is becoming. Things are not equal for women in every arena and are not equal for men in every arena. I am not advocating extra rights for men or for women. But you should know (as many on here do not seem to want to acknowledge despite referenced claims I have made) that there are those that would not have equal rights, but more rights for women and the marginalization of men.

      • Alma

        I don’t think any contemporary feminist that I know would say that a man can’t be a feminist or that women can’t be sexist. I would also say that obviously you are not one, or perhaps you would know a few more and you might know this.

        • Jeff Middel

          Then address the evidence I’ve posted. Because there clearly are and I’m not using anecdotal evidence in this case. I have elsewhere. And if you read all of my posts here maybe you’ll have a clearer picture.

      • ElishaC

        You really, REALLY need to educate yourself on the difference between discrimination and sexism. No, really. Off you go before spouting your mouth off again about concepts you are currently unequipped to understand.

        • Jeff Middel

          Is this the part where you wo/man-splain it to me? Maybe you could expand one kyriarchy at the same time. Sheesh. I could say the same for you. But why don’t you address the post instead of inputting ad hominem attacks. Then you’ll seem as smart as you think you are. 😛

          • ElishaC

            Unlike your weird accusations of ‘womansplaining’ and ‘misandry’ (neither of those things are things, dude), my ‘attacks’ are a direct response to your posts. I trust you’re happy to be considered accountable for their content? You have revealed your lack of education on two counts: one – extremely poor reading comprehension, and two – absolute lack of a basic freaking understanding of entrenched oppression. To cover both points, in a nutshell: the article you keep citing (yep, it’s citing, not ‘siting’) at no point claims that women can’t be sexist. What it DOES say is that the power class – men, in this case – cannot be VICTIMS of sexism (as white people cannot be victims of racism). Women can indeed be sexist – but only against women. In other words – because I get the feeling you really need this broken down into its simplest form – men can experience discrimination, but because they are not the oppressed group, they cannot experience sexism. Get it?

          • edtastic

            “absolute lack of a basic freaking understanding of entrenched oppression.”

            You have no clue what you are talking about because you’ve never suffered entrenched oppression. I can say that without knowing you because I doubt you are someone in Guantanamo Bay or a person wrongly accused due to racial bias, or a slave descendant suffering Jim Crow in the deep south. Seriously the petty crap being labeled oppression today makes me sick. Too many spoiled little girls looking to get a victim fix in this party.

            Let’s deescalate the language and act like it’s 2013 and not 1910.

    • Benjamin

      I’m for Grammar Rights! “Whomever” never said anything. Whoever? Perhaps.

  • SJ

    Okay, so I usually hate “the sarcastic post” because I think most of them come off as bitter, not funny. But this was amazing! Congrats on your mastery of humor!

    • Thank you! I appreciate that.

      • daisyjane0911

        I don’t really think of this as snark or sarcasm but rather a brilliant form of satire. Love it!

  • I mean. There are no words. This is brilliant.

  • remember that gentle mic-drop I mentioned to you?

    this is that. absolutely brilliant.

  • Joy Lynn- Schroeder

    We attended a church we thought was ‘hip’ modern, contemporary. It took nearly a year for me to actually notice the lack of women in primary leadership positions as well as the refusal to recognize women in leadership as equal to men, able to carry the title “pastor”. As I started to inquire, to question to challenge this policy and others I earned my reputation as someone who was dangerous and divisive.

    “… (fe)Male perspectives are dismissed for being too subjective or too emotional. When we speak up, we are often dismissed as angry, rebellious, subversive, or dangerous…”

    This last sentence is nearly verbatim what the youngish male pastor pointed out to me right before he (pleasantly enough) asked my husband and I to ‘prayerfully consider leaving that church to find another church home. Honestly we were already on our way out by that time…but there’s really something powerful about being asked out for coffee…and then being told how much damage you are doing to the cause of
    Christ and being invited to leave…and “just go to one of those emergent kind of churches”. The ‘staff’ had finally had enough of my rebellious, subversive and dangerous nature. Which primarily looked like me approaching and curiously asking why our church had only male pastors and why women who were clearly leading, only held titles like ‘director’ and were excluded from the weekly pastors planning/prayer meetings. I tried unsuccessfully to get the blessing/suport of the staff to start women’s groups etc.My requests were met with suspicion disdain and apathy over and over. My husband was treated with the same disdain for not acting in his God given role to see my behavior as a problem and ‘correct me’.

    I certainly did respectfully challenge some of the more overt ways that our church at the time and others like it diminished the value of women in the body…but no matter the tone…what I said was relegated to hysteria…over emotionalizing and being plain ol’ angry. And just in case I wasn’t able to connect the dots from there, the pastor wrapped up our ‘coffee talk’ with this statement… ” If you think I am being arrogant or harsh you clearly do not understand your role as a woman in the church.”

    • Good for you!

    • Tamara

      Oh my god, Joy, that is terrible! And people think we don’t need feminism anymore. I just can’t even… You are a Woman of valor for standing up to that bs.

    • Nancy Le

      I am so sorry that happened to you. That’s not reflective of Christ at all. God bless you and your husband.

      • Guest

        Um.. actually it is reflective of what’s written in the Bible and what every major religion I have come in contact with. Some are just more quiet about it than others.

        • Johann

          Aha, someone who gets it. +1

        • Nancy Le

          yes, but don’t confuse our life experiences with religion or even the Bible. The person of Christ is who I was referring to, and nothing in the Bible that he did looks like that.

        • Lauren W

          “In Luke 8:1 ff., several are mentioned by name in the same sentence with the Twelve: “He made his way through towns and villages preaching and proclaiming the Good News of the Kingdom of God. With him went the Twelve, as well as certain women . . . who provided for them out of their resources.” (Cf: Mk.15:40f. The Greek word translated here as “provided for” and in Mark as “ministered to” is diekonoun, the same basic word as “deacon;” indeed apparently the tasks of the deacons in early Christianity were much the same as these women undertook.)” http://www.godswordtowomen.org/feminist.htm

    • Erik Merksamer

      I can relate to some of that. :(

    • Mia

      My jaw is on the floor. Blech. Sorry you went through that. :(

    • Wendee

      That just plain ticks me off! Nothing like pastor’s who don’t handle situations with LOVE and grace. It’s he who should leave the church for not understanding HIS role as a pastor.

    • Pat

      If you were just angry, wouldn’t that mean something was done to provoke said anger?

    • edtastic

      ” It took nearly a year for me to actually notice the lack of women in primary leadership positions as well as the refusal to recognize women in leadership as equal to men, able to carry the title “pastor”. ”

      You do realize you’re faith is based on a 2000 year old text right? Feminism can’t fix it after the fact if you consider it to be the word of god. Who knows what would happen if stoning adulterers was legal. Ignore what you like but if they actually take the texts literally you aren’t going to get gender equality. It was a deeply patriarchal faith from start so there isn’t much you can do about it except abandon the parts you don’t like and choose churches that do the same.

  • Rev’d Daniel

    See? Snark can be constructive :)

  • This wins the Internet for the day. Go you! :)
    -From a Dangerous, World-Ruining Feminist

  • lexlibris8

    Sorry “Bro” but you ignore the very real disparagement of men and disadvantages placed on men that have occurred at the hands of feminists. Where to start? My own personal odyssey from feminist male to antifeminist?

    I was raised in a single parent household by a very militant feminist and taught to always make sure women were included and got a fair break. I have tried to practice this throughout my 30 year academic career, but have found that feminists never reciprocate to include men or make sure they get a fair break and as a result I have abandoned this very one sided relationship. I still have some very positive and productive relationships with women, but notably not with feminists.

    What events led to this break? In chronological order:a feral judge who withdrew the offer of a clerkship to me because he needed to give it to a woman; the exclusion of my son from the accelerated learning program because the female administrators looked on at reading and not math scores (resulting in a program that was two thirds white females); my exclusion from the “take back the night” rally after my 16 year old son was assaulted because the rally was about “violence against women” (and only women); the lack of cooperation from the local women’s shelter committee in removing the prosecutor who refused to prosecute the adult felons who attacked my son, even though this prosecutor was horrible on rape prosecution (we did succeed in getting him unelected and the women’s shelter director came out two days before the election against him, what bravery); being passed over for promotion in favor of younger, less experienced and less qualified women, by our first women Dean who only became Dean because I and another male member of the selection committee fought for her (this experience was a very strong lesson in the fact that no matter how much I tried to include women or be fair to them, the feminists would never treat me the same because my success as a male, was not a success in their eyes); being disinvited from presenting at a conference because “we need more women on the panels”; being excluded from reunions at my childhood summer camp because they occur during “Women’s Mini-week” and men are not invited; being ostracized feminist faculty members for objecting to affirmative action practices that benefit mostly wealthy white females at the expense of men and other minorities (we are now the minority on campus); and being abused by other feminist faculty members for objecting to sending an all female hiring committee to the job market.

    Although women may not have equal number of Senators or CEO’s they occupy real positions of power and majority status across our society and especially in our educational institutions. Until feminists try to include men and their concerns, I will have nothing to do with them. We need gender equity and mutual support and understanding, not feminism. No more asymmetric relationships for me where I care for and try to include women and they just abuse me.

    • Porst

      Your anecdotal experience doesn’t diminish the rights of an entire gender of people and millennia of oppression, sorry.

      • theblackcommenter

        Ya know I just don’t buy the ‘millennia of oppression’ deal. It just isn’t true. And your flippant dismissive comment betrays a very real callousness. It is basically, “well I’m sorry its bad for you, but so what? Some (unknown) women long ago were oppressed and that’s more important and more valid than what you’ve directly experienced.”

        • Porst

          “Long ago”? Let me put it this way: If you, as a man, walk through a parking garage in the middle of the night and see a woman, are you afraid of her? My guess is probably not. When you go out to a bar, do you have to constantly watch your drink so women don’t spike it, while turning down their unwelcome advances? Probably not. Do you have to walk in a group of men around your university campus so some woman doesn’t jump out of the shadows and sexually assault you? I’m guessing not. Until you experience that kind of fear on a daily basis, you don’t get to act like it’s no big deal. It’s called social privilege. It’s called rape culture. Research both before talking big about how women don’t have it harder than us.

          I’m not saying we don’t have to deal with bad stuff sometimes too, but it doesn’t even compare. It’s the gender equivalent to White People Problems.

          • theblackcommenter

            You know I don’t make it a practice to walk through parking garages alone at night because, you know, crime. And I don’t go to bars with people who are liable to spike my drink. I when I was university campus I never worried about a woman jumping out from the shadows to sexually assault me… of course neither did most women. But if I did walk around campus at night, it was safer to walk with friend cause you know, crime… and I carried a 6 inch blade with me too. So fear about crime and caution about such environments is not an exclusively female concern and given that men are much more likely to be physically assaulted than women, it is actually more of a male concern

            Really? ‘Bad stuff sometimes’ is what men have to deal with? Name a category of bad stuff that happens to people and you’ll find that more men are on that list than women in almost every case. Assault? yep Forcible Rape? yep Murder? yep Workplace Injury? yep Premature death? yep Infant Mortality? yep Mental Illness? yep Accidents? yep Homelessness? yep Armed Robbery? yep Deaths in War? Yep Hell even spontaneous abortion (i.e. miscarriage)? yep. And on it goes. And it has always been this way and probably always will.

            There is NO epidemic of rape and NO such thing as rape culture. Is there a group of men anywhere in North America who think rape is an acceptable practice? I’m sure you could find some. Is there a widespread cultural acceptance of rape as a practice? Absolutely not.

          • Porst

            Holy shit, learn some empathy. You’re insane.

          • theblackcommenter

            Empathy is just what I was emphasizing in response to the original comment. Lexlibris8 shared an experience to which the response was decidedly UNempathetic which I pointed out. So now I need to learn empathy? Ok

          • Jeff Middel

            You’re cherry picking deviance in order to malign males and elevate females.
            How many people laughed at John Wayne Bobbitt when he was abused?

          • #confuzzled

            If we determine being scared of the opposite gender to be a sign you’re oppressed, than clearly some men deal with “bad stuff” that’s just as bad as the stuff many women deal with.

            Not all women have to deal with what you describe, nor are all men free from the harm you claim women are victims of.

            Whatever the person you’re responding to may have experienced, it has no bearing on what all men experience.

      • lexlibris8

        Never said it does, but my experience is as valuable as yours, even though I am a man.

        • Porst

          So am I though, and I’m not complaining because I know what social privilege is.

      • Jeff Middel

        There is no making up for a millennium of oppression as those people are no longer alive. The people who it would be taken out on in order to “balance the scales” would just be a new group of oppressed and ultimately lead to the pendulum swinging the other way again.

    • Nancy Le

      I’m sorry all that happened to you. We do need equity and mutual support and understanding . . . yes we do.

      • lexlibris8

        Thank you Nancy. I could work with you.

      • Jeff Middel

        And if feminism is interested in equality, it would actively address such inequalities. As in the past it has tended not to, MRA (ism?) has risen to fill the void. Yet MRA’s are disdained and vilified while feminists are praised.

    • “feminists never reciprocate to include men or make sure they get a fair break and as a result I have abandoned this very one sided relationship.”

      I’m sorry this has been your experience. It has not been mine. In fact, @RachelEvans:disqus and Sarah Bessey, two Christian feminists, have supported me tremendously in my growth as a writer/blogger. It’s not an exaggeration to say that this site would not exist as it does today if not for the opportunities these two women have given me.

      • lexlibris8

        I’m glad for you Micah (“Bro?”), but I do think that as you have more experience in the workplace, especially if you ever work in a female dominated workplace, you may begin to see my point of view. The problem is that people, both men and women, tend to “clique” with people of their own gender. In social settings this is fairly harmless, but in work it can be quite problematic. Men tend to associate with and promote men and women tend to associate with and promote women. As a young man I recognized this and tried to overcome it and include women. I favored affirmative action for women as students and faculty. I favored special programs to promote women in science and math. I went out of my way to include female students in programs and make sure they were not disadvantaged in grades. I steadfastly supported our female Associate Dean when she applied for Dean to make sure she got a “fair shake.” The feminists urged us to include the women, and we responded admirably. The problem is that women are at least as cliquey as men and there is no corresponding admonition on the women, in feminism or otherwise, to make sure they are fair to the men. Now I work on a campus that has had it’s third female provost in a row, in a school that has had two female deans and three female associate deans in a row (and our female provost has just extended an offer to a new female dean). Women are the significant majority of students and new faculty on campus, and I see no effort to include men in any of the many disciplines women now dominate (life sciences, health sciences, education, languages, more). The plum internship program in my school is our is our international internship and last year we had 15 female interns and 2 males, no discussion about how to make sure men are included. The problem most definitely lies with feminism as it is currently practiced. Feminism urges men to include women, and we are sexist if we don’t, but there is no similar exhortation on women. Women “can and should” develop groups to further just their interests because this is “empowering.” If women are under-represented in a department or program, this is evidence of discrimination, but if men are under-represented its evidence women are better. Men have significantly worse educational opportunities and worse job prospects and higher unemployment. The only thing that saves men’s earnings is that we work many more hours in paid labor. Men have never been held in lower esteem. I think feminism has to take the blame for much of this, and we haven’t even talked about the feminists who genuinely hate men.

      • A.Ellsworth

        I think that we could safely say that those two women are egalitarians, not feminists.

        • The two terms are not mutually exclusive, and both Rachel and Sarah are vocal proponents of both egalitarianism and feminism.

        • They both self-identify as feminists.

    • Jeff Middel

      Unbelievable that fair-minded feminists down-voted this post.
      I understand your perspective.

      My relationship with rights issues is based solely on equality and not with major biased groups. I have both a son and a daughter to worry about and about their respective futures. New feminism will hurt them both and is hurting society at large.

  • Missy Bell

    Love this. Thank you for writing.

  • Yes, I am she.

    This is ironic right? Your research isn’t sound. Women hold 18.3% of Congress seats, not 80%. What women’s sports teams have you been watching lately? When has the last time you’ve been catcalled? Seriously, I’m curious. Yes, men’s bodies are objectified and I’m sorry about that. But women’s are just as much, if not more. If you approached this article from the stand point of the men’s caricature in the media, as looking stupid or unimportant I would readily agree with you. What women make more money in a job than men? In 2012, women were paid 77% of what men were paid. I’m not complaining. I just want proper facts, not flimsy reasoning. When would someone call a man a “slut” or a “whore”? This article is sooooooo confusing!

    • Brett FISH Anderson

      hi there, my name is uncle google, type in the word ‘satire’ and i will answer all the mysteries of this blog…

    • Bob Wilson

      This comment just set feminism back 100 years.

    • pete dayton

      Yes – I agree with your comment on the media – I am so tired that men as husbands and fathers are consistently portrayed as bimbos on almost every reality show – trust me, most of us are not anything like that

  • AN

    I appreciate the sarcasm, but you do bring up one good point. Health insurance may pay for birth control, but it’s never offered a dime to cover my condom purchases. Thanks a lot, feminism.

    • corislepp

      birth control is really helpful to women beyond just trying to prevent pregnancy. and it doesn’t protect against STDs (like condoms do) anyway.

  • Y. A. Warren

    I am so tired of the pendulum swing from women to men and men to women. it is time that we all understand partnerships of individual powers in forming communities.

  • Steven Willis

    Cobblers! I can buy kamagra for 50p a tab no grovelling or owt

  • Steven Willis

    All things serious a decent man supports a decent woman vice versa and so on, happy days all fonzies X

  • silentwisdom

    This is a completely biased piece. This is not brilliant. This is not poetic. This is pathetic. I don’t even know where to begin to refute it. I guess I will start by saying that feminism does hurt men.
    I understand the feelings of inequality. As an independent woman in 21st century America I get it. But what I don’t get is how women (and men) today feel that breaking the mold God gave us is the one and only path to this “ultimate equality”.
    Men and women are different. That is something all can agree on. But why are we different? We usually don’t consider asking that question. We just say that is the way it is. I know I used to say that. That was before I met Ben. I met Ben in my junior year of college. He was a transfer student from a smaller community college and he was perfect. We met in a psychology class and hit it off right away. It wasn’t long before we were an item. At first, things were great. He was a great boyfriend and I was a great girlfriend. We were there for each other in every situation fulfilling our roles beautifully.
    During Christmas break of our Senior year Ben asked me to marry him. I was overjoyed as many are when that question is finally popped.
    it wasn’t long before we started laying out plans for our big day. We had decided to marry that coming September. A beautiful outdoor wedding was in mind and nothing was in our way…or so it seemed.
    The next 7 months were as dark and gloomy as a shadow on a rainy day.
    I’m not sure what spurred it on, that thing inside of me. That desire, that lust for control.
    Maybe it was the idea of becoming Mrs. Ben or maybe it was the feeling of having to give up my wants. All I know is that the beast was most definitely released.
    It was an assassin however. No one saw it coming. Not even me. It was not this big event where you could see the writing on the wall. It was far too crafty and clever for that.
    My desire for this “equality” that had been slipped into my mind was taking over. All through my teens and most heavily in my early college years, I had been told that things were not right. Things were unfair and I needed to fight back.
    I had been told that men considered themselves superior to women. That at their roots they were merely a sexual being with no real morality, substance, feelings or emotions.
    I was told that every kind act was an attempt to underhand me.
    I was told to rise up and defeat them.
    Of course, none of this was direct. It was written into the textbooks. Carved into the words of professors. Slithering through the pages of magazines. It was silent, but deadly. It was so unnoticeable and clever that it had simply entered my unguarded heart with ease.
    For years I was being poisoned. All those lies built up silently in my soul and waited for their time to burn pain into those around me.
    Ben was the one I hurt first and most.
    As our wedding plans unfolded he was there to go above and beyond the call of duty. He gave so much of his time and energy to make sure I was happy.
    But slowly and surely I was killing him. Not in the literal sense of course, but in the way of who he was. His personality and him as a man.
    You see, I believe that God made men and women for a reason and that He made us DIFFERENT for many reasons.
    I believe that God designed men for leadership. I believe He designed women for support and encouragement of that leadership. Men that are truly following God are doing just that; following. So even the leader is a follower. We are working for the same goal. Anyone who understands teamwork in the slightest knows that leadership is essential to the success of reaching a goal.
    Both men and women are called to be submissive to God equally right? And if our goal is to serve God and do His will, a leader and follower are equal in that quest, right?
    I didn’t always believe that way. I felt that Ben had been raised to a higher position than I. I didn’t see why he had to be the leader when I was fully capable myself.
    Because of this thinking I began a war without even realizing it. I was unknowingly waging a war against Ben, my womanhood, and against God.
    Over that 7 month period I destroyed Ben. I broke his soul.
    In every situation where Ben needed to be himself and take the leadership role I stopped him. I kicked and screamed until I thought things were right or at least done my way. Every time Ben was acting as a man and trying to fulfill his role, I crushed him.
    I crushed him because I was suppose to right? Men were power hungry and I needed to take that power away. Those lies were pouring from my heart.
    I beat him down till there was nothing but an insecure boy left and then criticized him for that too. I was demanding he give up his manhood and yet act like a mature man all at the same time.
    So he did what he thought was his last option. He left. He quit. And I don’t blame him.
    My feminism drove him to the edge. He believed that being a man meant that he had to settle with living with a woman like me. So instead he chose to retreat to being a boy. Actually, I pushed him off that ledge.
    He returned to a place where he felt safe. A place where he wouldn’t offend someone like me. It is easier to be a boy than to be a man because there is less expected responsibility.
    It took two months for me to realize what I had done. In those months I went from congratulating myself for standing up for my rights, to the pain and remorse I felt for the wrong I had done.
    This is not a sad story though. In the time after I realized my faults, God worked amazing things in my life and heart. He revealed so much wisdom to me. I felt His grace and mercy on me.
    One of the ways He showed His love was by bringing Ben back to me.
    During our time together Ben had become close with my brother David.
    A little over a year ofter things had unraveled, David privately called Ben. I had had many heart to heart conversations with David and he understood the change that had happened in me.
    He told Ben of my transformation and urged him to call me.
    I cried during the entire phone call from Ben.
    We met a week later for coffee and were dating again within a few weeks.
    We are happily married now. It really is a testament of Gods love for His children.
    Ben and I are far from perfect people. We still make our fair share of mistakes. But its our ability to work through them as an equal team of leader and follower with a common goal that gives us true victory.
    If you women out there are tired of dating/marrying boys, try letting them be the men they were meant to be.
    I will end by quoting a well known comedian. His words ring sadly true: “Chivalry is dead, and women killed it.”
    I would add to this and say that real men are dying, and women are killing them.
    But there is hope because we can stop this trend.

    • Sick of feminism’s poison

      Yes!!!! Exactly what I was thinking but said so much better!!!

    • I’m truly sorry that you had a bad experience. However, I’m not sure there’s anything in this post that goes against “the mold God gave us”.

      • silentwisdom

        Obviously you have not discovered the silent but deadly.

    • Darcy

      I am a strong, independent, feminist. I am married to a strong, independent, traditionally-manly man who calls himself a feminist. We have been married almost 10 years now and have 4 beautiful children. We believe in equality and that two strong people gifted in leadership can live together in peace, love, and romance. Dominance like you described in your story does not exist in our relationship. We practice mutual submission and mutual respect. It’s a constant give and take. We do not have gender roles in our marriage nor do we think they are needed. He is not my “spiritual leader” nor am I his. We each have our own spiritual life, each answering to God for ourselves, and each supporting each other in that. I don’t believe God gave us a “mold”. He made us people and said “love one another” and “treat each other as you would want to be treated” and “submit one to another”. We take those principles very seriously. Those are what is missing in your story. The “one-another” scriptures are what is missing in your story. A happy, healthy marriage is not based on man-made gender roles or man leading, woman following. It is built on the simple principle of loving your neighbor as yourself. The Golden Rule. Agape love. Your story is the perfect example of what happens when those very basic foundations of Christianity and humanity are ignored, not what happens when women and men are equal.

      • A. Ellsworth

        Then that would be called egalitarianism, not feminism.

        • Darcy

          Yes, our marriage is Egalitarian. But I was addressing *being* a feminist in a happy, healthy marriage, and the idea presented that if you do not submit and let men lead and stay “in your place” as a woman, that your marriage will go to hell. Which is simply not true.

        • Erin

          lol oh, just tell her she had a point. That feminism by nature isn’t harmful. Misapplication of it leads to imbalance.

    • Darcy

      I would also add this: if men are so fragile that women being equal with them is “killing” them, that they need women to lead and be chivalrous for or they cannot be men, then they are poor excuses for men, for people even. They need to stop blaming their lack of maturity and strength on other people and take responsibility for themselves. Their personhood should not be based on others but on an innate trait inside themselves. I would call it “the Image of God”, because I am a Christian. It is a dangerous practice to base our worth as men and women on other people. To blame them for not being the person we should be. I am a mature, healthy woman, not because I let my man lead me and stay “in my place”, but because I am confident in myself, in who God has created me to be. Because I take responsibility for my own actions, thoughts, and character. I would never dream of blaming any lack of maturity on other people.

      • A. Ellsworth

        To me, this is a very patriarchal statement. One thing that feminism has brought into mainstream society is the fact that we are all dependent on each other–something that women do naturally. Your macho I-don’t-need-nobody stance is what suppresses women’s nature and purports this idea that men should be fine on their own and don’t need any support from anyone else if they can just be man enough. Maturity and health come when we realize we can’t do everything all on our own.

        I am not really a feminist, but I am not patriarchal either. I’m all about equality, and it’s views of men like this that shame them and bring them down even further.

        • Darcy

          Where did I say “I don’t need nobody”? You keep twisting my words or maybe you just don’t understand them. I’m not going to argue with a strawman. If you’d like to address what I actually said, then we can talk.

        • Erin

          As far as I could tell, Darcy’s post affirms independence and self-worth and is very affirmative, in no way did I see her bringing anyone down. Perhaps take what she said about having self-esteem to heart? She said repeatedly that she and her husband mutually support each other beautifully.

  • Nate Smith


  • jerry557

    The problem with feminism is they claim to support “equal rights” but only fight for women’s rights. Sorry, but the two are not the same thing.

    • theblackcommenter

      Feminism is the attempt to appropriate the rights and privileges of the most elite men in any society for women while preserving all of the customary rights and privileges for women.

      • When you asked elsewhere in the thread, “what makes you think that men maintain credibility among their peers after saying stupid uneducated things?” this comment came immediately to mind.

  • D Mo

    Because of feminism, sarcasm is the dominant tone of this blog post.

    But seriously, if you want to talk about feminism and more broadly, our culture, I’d say stop being a passive-aggressive blogger, Micah J. Murray, and put forth an intellectual essay worth reading. I don’t care that you saw an ill-conceived thought uttered on the weakest of intellectual platforms, I care when discussions are genuine, and sarcasm is a path leading away from sincerity.

    • Clearly you are the intellectual superior.

      • Amy

        He should probably stop writing comments, right Preston? I mean, you’re the one who decides who should be writing and who shouldn’t, right?

    • A. Ellsworth

      You are being a little harsh toward someone you don’t even know, but I will agree with you that sarcasm only encourages people to be smug and it does not promote honest and open communication. It puts walls up.